An oral history gathered as part of the In Living Memory project, Pioneers and Protest.
In the interview, Stella discusses her life in Lewisham in the 1980s and her memories of the New Cross Fire and the Black People’s Day of Action.
Parts of this interview are featured in a film produced by the project entitled Pioneers and Protest: Seeking Change.
Transcript
Nena (interviewer): Hi, my name is Nena Bisceglia, and today I’m here with Stella Headley for an interview about the Black People’s Day of Action as part of IRIE! dance Pioneers and Protest’s project for Living Memory, Lewisham. And today is Thursday 19th of May, and we are at the Moonshot Centre. Hi Stella, thank you so much for being here with us and for your time. I feel very lucky to have the opportunity to talk to you. And this is an interview about oral history, so we want to record your story, that’s why I’m not going to say too much, but I’ll love to have a conversation after this if you want. And could you please spell your name and surname for us, thank you.
Stella (interviewee): So I’m Stella Headley, that’s S-T-E-L-L-A, and Headley is H-E-A-D-L-E-Y.
Nena: Thank you. OK, so just to start with a bit of personal story and background. How would you describe yourself in 1981?
Stella: In 1981?
Nena: Yes.
Stella: In 1981 I think I’d describe myself as a young rebel, and I was very eager to have my perspectives known. And also I think my dad used to call me a hustler because I used to try and think of ways to earn money to contribute towards the gas and the electric meter. [Laughs]
Nena: OK. Thank you. And can you tell us something about the area you grew up and where you went to school?
Stella: So I grew up in an area called Sydenham which is in the Borough of Lewisham. And opposite us was a park, Mayow Park in Sydenham. And we used to go – I have four sisters, so there were five of us, and so we used to go to that park every day. And where we lived there was a bank where you had to climb down through some bushes. You could go around the long way, but we just used to climb through to the main road and then run across the road to the park with our two dogs following us. And so we knew the park; every single part of the park we knew. So we were brought up in that area.
And in that area there were a lot of big houses with gardens, and so we used to do a – it’s called scrumping where we used to – I used to – I was the youngest, so I would be the one that would get hoisted over the fence to the apple trees or the pear trees or whatever fruit trees it was, and then the rest would follow. And then we’d pack our jumpers or bags or whatever with fruits and then run – [laughs] run home and, I don’t know, make an apple pie, or sometimes we used to collect blackberries.
There seemed to be a lot of bramble around that area. There was a woods, Dacres Road Woods, there was a lot of bramble and blackberries and things, so we’d collect blackberries and apples and things and make apple and blackberry crumbles, yes.
And the school I went to was not far. There was a bridge, a small bridge halfway down Dacres Road. And it was next to a church called –
Nena: Take us back to Dacres Road.
Stella: OK. Yes.
Interviewer 2: Could you pick up from Dacres?
Stella: From?
Interviewer 2: Dacres. Dacres Road?
Stella: Oh, Dacres Road. Yes, so there was a road called Dacres Road right next to where we lived, and there was some woods there called Dacres Woods. It had a big swamp in it, and we used to have a swing made out of a rope and a tyre and we used to try and swing from one side of the swamp to the other without dropping in the swamp. And there was a lot of brambles there, so we used to collect blackberries, and with the apples that we’d scrumped we’d make blackberry, apple crumble. And yes, we did a lot of exploring in the woods. And we used to go there in the evening times, at night times, and tell spooky stories. And I’d be the youngest, I’d always be the one in tears, and then we’d run.
We used to have this thing called Leg It. As soon as you’d hear someone say Leg It, you just run. But yes, so not far from there, there was a bridge next to a church called the Bonhoeffer Church, and when you go over that bridge you were in a different – actually it was a different postcode. So you go over the bridge and you’re in a different postcode. And not far from there was my school, my secondary school, Sydenham Girls School on Dartmouth Road in Forest Hill. And then, yes, so I went to that school from ‘76 to ‘81.
Nena: OK. And how was your education experience?
Stella: My education experience, wow, it was an – yes, it was an experience. See, on the one hand, at home, my dad, he was a record collector and so he used to collect records, and not just music but speech records. And so he had this record called Black Family Day, and it was from 1971, and it was a speech record of a Black Family Civil Rights Day in America. And so on the one hand I was conscious and aware of Black civil rights and things, but then at school I felt that I was stripped away of my rights whilst I was at school. So I had good days and bad days at school, and I think by the time I reached the fourth year of secondary school I opted not to wear school uniform anymore. I didn’t want to wear any form of uniform.
And in the early years whilst I was at the school it was interesting because they put you in groups and streams, and I was in this stream where I was studying History, Classical Studies, Religious Education, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and English, and Maths. And I felt it was a punishment because all my friends were studying courses that I thought were really interesting. And so once you get to the fourth year, you get to choose your options and so I chose not to work towards O Levels and A Levels. I chose to work for just a Certificate of Secondary Education which was a CSE because I found those subjects more interesting for me.
Nena: OK. Thank you. And how would you describe the area of Lewisham at the time, and the community?
Stella: At the time my memories were, from where I lived, we experienced racism. We experienced quite a lot of racism. I have memories of neighbours on one side calling us names. Am I allowed to say the names?
Nena: It’s up to you.
Stella: So you had neighbours on one side not so much shouting, but as soon as you’d go in the garden they would say jungle bunny, golliwog. And then the neighbours on the other side would be singing songs that were clearly offensive. And so we – myself and my sisters – we built up a resilience against that. And sometimes you’d come home from school and there was racist graffiti written on your door with dogs excrement. And so it must’ve been hard for my mum really. It must’ve been hard for my mum because we were quite consciously aware of what racism was.
And my mum’s background was from – she came from Barbados, and she came from the Church of England background, and so she just wanted to assimilate and blend in, but [laughs] we weren’t being allowed to anyway. And so the area was quite racist. I remember walking to the shops and seeing – there’s one man in particular, he was really tall, and as soon as he used to see us he used to do the Heil Hitler sign. And he had an Alsatian dog, and he’d let his dog bark at us. And so sometimes, you know, we got used to his pattern of walking the dog.
And so what we used to do is there was a letterbox on one side of the road, and we used to get a piece of thread and tie it to a milk bottle, [laughs] and put it on top of the letterbox, and then put the other side of the string in the bush or something. So that when he walked past, the bottle would drop and smash. [Laughs] So we used to have our own way of getting our own back at him. But yes, but on a serious note, there was places around Lewisham that you just couldn’t go as a Black person because you would experience racism. And those places were not that far from where you live, so we weren’t welcome in many places, so I think that’s why we used to spend a lot of time in the park.
We used to spend a lot of time in the park because when you go further afield, and you have to walk from a different area then you’re likely to be called names. And even at school I experienced – a friend invited us to her birthday party, and when we got there, at some point I heard her mum say “Oh, I didn’t know, I didn’t realise that all of your friends were Black.” And I just happened to hear because I was going to the toilet at the time. But so there was always that subtle – if not overt, then it was really subtle racism going on. And there were places that just weren’t friendly in Lewisham. Yes, it’s changed a lot now, yes.
Nena: Thank you. So as you just told us, you had a great awareness of racism because of your family specifically and the role of your dad in your life, and because of your daily experiences in Lewisham. But can you tell us a bit about what made you decide to join the march specifically [unintelligible 00:13:24]?
Stella: Yes. [Pauses] I decided to join the march because on the day of the party I met my cousin and my friends, and we met up and then we went to the party. And three of them, the boys, they went inside, and myself and my other school friend we were downstairs. And then she was saying that she had to go, you know, she had to go home. And so we asked the boys, or one of the boys, to walk us to the cab station on New Cross Road. And so we got the cab, and she went home, and I went home. And then in the morning – a few hours later I think it was – the phone was ringing, and it was one of the boys’ mums asking me have I seen her son.
And I said, “Yes, he’s at the party. He was at a party.” And then she started panicking, saying that there was a fire at the party. And then I think I stayed awake until I think the news came on really early in the morning. And then the next day she still couldn’t find him. She kept ringing and I said, “I don’t know where he is,” and then that’s when I saw on the news what had happened. And then my cousin – I call him my cousin but he’s – because we are really close – he was missing as well. And then eventually I found out that he had died. [Pauses] And I think they recognised him by his dental record.
And so when I went to school there was a girl, an English girl, and she made a comment and she said, “Oh, that’s 13 less niggers we have to worry about,” no, “twelve less niggers we have to worry about.” And I got really upset about that, and then we had an argument, and then we had an assembly. And a couple of weeks later there was an assembly. We had an assembly, and this was on the day of the march. Because in between that I’d been going to Andrew’s house, and his brother was burned as well in the fire, and myself and my friends, we used to just go to the house. And his mum used to let us just go into his bedroom and we just used to hang about in the room and just sit on the bed.
And I remember one day I was there, and the brother came in, and I just couldn’t stop looking at his face. Because I think at the time he had jumped out and he was rubbing his face thinking it was dust and something on his face, but he was actually rubbing off his skin off of his face. And so the pigmentation had never come back, but at the time it was very sore, and I kept looking at him and I just remember passing out and just collapsing, and just waking up on the bed. And then after that it was a case of just funerals, and I didn’t really understand about all these funeral arrangements because I was 15 at the time.
[Pauses] And so yes, I think that on the day of the march I started to hear about at meetings that were taking place, and people were angry about it. And then on the day of the march, it was a school day, and then I remember it was raining. It was miserable and raining, and we got called to an assembly, and the whole assembly was about this march and what had happened. And then our headmistress said that after the assembly stops everybody’s to go to their lessons and nobody’s to leave the school premises. And then I just thought, “There’s no way that I’m going to a lesson.” After hearing that whole assembly there was no way I could bear to just go into a classroom with a shut door and just be in that place for the whole day.
And so I asked some of my friends if they’re coming, they said, “No,” they’re not coming. And so just after everybody went to their – I waited around for everybody to go to their classes, until the corridors were quiet and everything, and then I just decided I’m going to the march. And so it [laugh] felt like a long walk to the gates of the school because – and I’m sure – I didn’t look behind, and I didn’t look left or right, but I just felt that I was being watched. And I just walked towards the school gate, and it was one of these – I think it was about seven foot wrought iron gate with spikes at the top.
And I was thinking, “How am I going to get out of here?” you know. And then there was a teacher at the gate, and he said to me, “You know I can’t allow you to go through the gates.” I said, “Yes, I know.” So then he said, “Well, are you planning on going somewhere?” I said, “Yes, I’m going to the march.” And he said, “How are you planning on getting out of the school?” So I said, “I’m climbing over the gate.” And he just looked at me and he just winked at me as if to say go for it, but he couldn’t really. And so as soon as he winked at me, I just thought, “OK, here we go.”
And then I just climbed over the gate and then just headed for the bus garage in – there’s a bus terminus in Forest Hill, and you can get a 171 bus straight to the Marquess of Granby which is opposite Goldsmiths. And so I just got the bus there and then I got off there and then I saw a couple of my friends from school, the ones that was at the party. And then we just joined in the rally at the house. And then when it was time, we just started walking and marching with people.
Nena: Thank you. Thank you for sharing this. Are you happy to continue?
Stella: Mm-hmm.
Nena: So how did you feel when you joined the march? What was the atmosphere?
Stella: I didn’t really understand what was going on, it was just people; there was just lots and lots and lots of people. And I just kept looking in at people’s faces. [Laughs] I just kept looking at people’s faces to see if I knew anybody. And every now and again I’d recognise faces of older teenagers or older people that I knew so I felt comfortable that I’m doing the right thing because all the right people, I felt, were there around me thing. And so it just ended up as me and just one friend, and then we just started to walk. And I remember when we got to Blackfriars there was just things going on. The march started to change and [pauses] – yes, the march started to change, and people were just going in different directions. And then that went on right until the evening. I don’t even know where we were because I didn’t really know.
Like once you get into the area, I didn’t really know the city, and so we were just following just small crowds of people here and there, and so I don’t know whether – I didn’t really understand what the march was at the time, I just knew that I had to be there to represent my friends. And yes, I think we were there till it got dark; we were still there. All I remember was we were still there when it was dark. And when I got home I think my mum or somebody said that they saw me on News at Six or something like that, [laughs] do you know what I mean? But I don’t know, it was just [pauses] – I don’t know, it started off with just people together, and then we ended up just in a small group of people. Then it ended up as just two of us, then we ended up making our way home.
And then after that there was just so much stuff that I started to see in the newspapers, and I kept … Because we’d been consciously aware of racism and civil rights and stuff like that, I started to look at the newspaper clippings. And I think one of them said, “A Black Day in Blackfriars.” And I was thinking, “What does that mean?” And then whereas the local newspaper from round here, South London, said how marchers marched with dignity, you know, and I was thinking “Huh?” And so then I started –anytime a paper came out I started to collect clippings and headlines and stories, and started to just look and see how we were being represented.
And it was the same year, it was my final year at school, 1981, and it was the same year as the uprisings in Brixton. And so that year for me was just – [pauses] I think it was a change for me in terms of I am standing up for my rights now; I’m going be doing work in my community. I became a lot more aware of the social surroundings and inequalities and that thing. And so, yes, it was just a year that I used to listen to a lot of music, but the music I listened to was artists like Curtis Mayfield and Nina Simone. And it was always songs of freedom, or songs of struggle, or songs of your people’s rights.
And so I got more and more into my music, and I think for me that was a way of maybe even coping with it. Because every time anything came up about the New Cross fire it was emotional, it was traumatising. And I was a teenager, and my friends were. We were teenagers and nobody counselled us, nobody offered us any therapy, nobody … There weren’t no healing process for us at all, you know, and so I guess even now, I find it really emotional to talk about, you know.
And I wasn’t a family member of anybody, so it must be just a hundred times worse for them. But there was a group of us young people that we didn’t receive any counselling or anything like that, and so it’s like living with trauma and stress. And every single time it comes up you relive the memory, and you relive the trauma, and you relive all the experiences over and over and over and over again. And we’re talking decades now, but it still feels like it was yesterday.
Nena: Thank you. So you’ve said a lot about the impact of these events on you personally, and also on other people like you, so on the community. And how you described the impact it had on the UK, because obviously to Black people, to say your actions is referred to as a key then for the history of Black people in the UK, but how would you describe it?
Stella: I mean I think a week or so later there was a fire in Ireland and some teenagers perished in that incident. And I think Margaret Thatcher or the Prime Minister at the time sent her condolences, and I think the Queen may have sent her condolences. And it was on the news, and it was in the headlines, and there was a lot of sympathy. There was a lot of outpour from the public of sympathy. And for me, it just made me angry because nothing was said about what had happened in New Cross. And the things that were said, it was painted in a negative way. And when we tried to express ourself through the day of action we were described as a mob, or rioting.
If you look at the headlines you’ll see the way that they described us. When I say “us,” I mean me. And so it was a case of just me becoming even more aware of inequalities and becoming more interested in equality and injustice and that kind of thing. And I think that it’s steered me to, I guess, who I am and how I think now, and what I do, and what’s important – what I consider to be important.
Nena: Thank you. You said you didn’t really get any forms of support for what you went through –
Stella: Mm-hmm.
Nena: – and no recognition as well from the institution. But was there any way that the community – do you think this created any forms of connection within the community or maybe ways you supported each other for this event?
Stella: Yes, I mean like an incident such as that, and the way it was dealt with, it built a lot of mistrust within the authorities against the police. It pulled people closer together because we had things in common; you know, we were there, and sometimes we’d go to some meetings and you’ll see the same people so you’d get a bit of comfort knowing that there’s somebody else there that went through some trauma, you know the trauma that I may have been through, and other people may have been through the same thing.
But genuinely I think that it made people acknowledge each other more, and I think that it brought the community closer together. Because there were teenagers from all areas, lots of different areas throughout the whole of Lewisham, and even out of Lewisham, that it affected, you know? And so yes, I think that I guess for me the impact was that I could see a community that is traumatised and maybe still living with trauma now.
Nena: Yes. About this, I know I watched a YouTube video with an introduction to the Rastafari Movement UK where you speak about how your aim with the movement is the healing and repairing of this trauma and pain that has historical roots. And so, yes, what was the connection between your work now under that people’s direction? How do you see that?
Stella: I think that having had that lived experience I am very perceptive to, I guess, other people’s traumas. I can recognise it, and so maybe I’m an empath, I don’t know, but there’s a saying, “He who feels it, knows it,” and so I want to do work that is empowering and almost giving people a sense of release and freedom from whatever the trauma is. And so the work that I do now is around food, but it’s also around wellbeing. So the projects is food and wellbeing. And so the wellbeing side of it is spiritual wellbeing, economic wellbeing, physical wellbeing, mental wellbeing, and so people will come to us with a whole range of different situations.
And it’s always been about having a conversation with somebody, and listening and hearing, and feeling what the person’s feeling, and then talking and coming up with solutions together. And then so my organisation can then maybe make connections with other organisations, or signpost, or support that person towards the pathway to where they need to get to next. And again, I think it’s all to do with that whole notion of justice or injustice. And I guess, for me it’s that experience – the experience that I had in ‘81, and right from having the comments made from that person in the school, to climbing over that fence and thinking, “I have to go, this is something that I have to do as part of my community.”
And then when I arrived, and seeing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of other people it made me feel, “Yes, I did the right thing, and you should follow your instinct.” And so when people come to my organisation now, and I know that it must have taken a lot for them to either pick up the phone or approach us, and so I feel humbled when someone comes and shares with me because I know what it’s like not to have someone to share with, and so that drives me. It’s a driving thing for me, so yes, I have time for people.
Nena: Thank you. And so, yes, through your activities you’re trying to practice this form of care – holistic I would say – for your community. And so if you have to think about the community of Lewisham today, because you’ve also mentioned that it has changed a lot through the years, and maybe your hopes for this community, what would you say?
Stella: There’s an elder in Lewisham called Jah Shaka, and occasionally I’ll go and talk to him, and we sit down and talk. And I remember one day we were sitting outside his house, and we were just sitting on the wall, talking. And I was saying to him, “So what is it then? What do I need to do to keep on doing my work?” And he’s an elder to me as a Rastafari, and he just said to me, “It’s really simple; it’s not complicated at all.” And then he said to me, “Just practice love and kindness.” You know, just love and kindness. “And just do that, just do love and kindness, and to everybody, no matter who they are, where they’re from, just practice love and kindness.”
And so I guess that’s the essence of the work that I do, and I think that that’s what I try to emulate in the work that I do. And I see that Lewisham has changed a lot from when I was born in Sydenham in ‘65 till now. It’s changed a lot, and there is more, I believe, love and kindness and tolerance in the borough. And so I guess my hopes and dreams is that it just keeps going, it spreads, and we all learn that life is not that complicated, really. And we have so many layers put on top of us through our experiences in life, through media that try to define who we are. But deep down, when you tap in deeply, there is this thing inside of everybody which is love and kindness.
Nena: So to conclude with, I would like to ask you, if you had to organise or think about the Black People’s Day of Action in 2022, what would it be about?
Stella: In 2022 it would be about healing and repair. Yes, it would be about healing and repair. And it would be healing and repair physically, mentally, economically, historically. It would just be a holistic healing of healing and repair. And yes, it’ll be a day of action of healing and repair.
[End of recorded material at 00:39:24]
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