An oral history gathered as part of the In Living Memory project, Pioneers and Protest.
In the interview, Russell discusses his experience as an educator and councillor in Lewisham and his memories of the Black People’s Day of Action.
Parts of this interview are featured in a film produced by the project entitled Pioneers and Protest: Seeking Change.
Transcript
Nena (interviewer): Hi, my name is Nena Bisceglia, and today I’m here with Russell Profitt at the Moonshot Centre. It’s 10th May 2022, and I’m going to be interviewing you about the Black People’s Day of Action. Thank you so much for your time and for being here with me. And I feel very lucky to have this opportunity. And English is not my first language, so if you don’t understand anything on what I say, just ask me and I repeat. OK, so I wanted to start with a bit of background and a bit of your just personal story. So if you would have to describe yourself in 1981 what would you say?
Russell (interviewee): I was a local councillor in the Lewisham Council for the ward Grinling Gibbons, and at the same time I was an educator. I worked at the Grinling Gibbons Primary School as its deputy and then its headteacher.
Nena: OK, thank you. And I’ve seen your interview in Uprising by Steve McQueen and the way you talk about the racism faced by Black young people in Lewisham and the politics of the scapegoat. So can you tell me a bit more about Lewisham at that time?
Russell: Well, going back to that time it’s important to understand that circumstances were different. At that time the way society looked at the Black community was quite, quite different. The community were looked upon as immigrants who had come to this country and who were out to take out of the country as much benefit as they could without giving anything back. And that imagery was wrong because we came to help build the United Kingdom and we needed to have the respect as equal and true participants, but that was not the case.
And many, many people tried to turn it in such a way that it made white people angry at the presence of the Black community across London. And that was quite heightened in an area of disadvantage, which is where most of those who were involved in the incidents at the time lived. Most Black people lived around the Deptford area, and so it was important that we get that context in to understanding what then led to the difficulties that followed.
Part of the difficulties at the time were not just public perception, but we had a police that were, in essence, managing the local situation that did not have anything like an empathy or understanding of the needs of Black people, particularly Black children and Black youth, and often reacted in hostile ways that made matters worse for all concerned.
Nena: OK, thank you. So in relation to this, coming to the events of the Black People’s Day of Action, you mentioned that at the time you were Deputy Head of Grinling Gibbons, and also local councillor. So if you can tell me what kind of roles you played in those events in your positions.
Russell: Yes, well as a local councillor I had contact with some of the families and I was involved in some of the reactions to the New Cross fire which was the issue behind the Black People’s Day of Action. The file was a vicious and tragic in incident that has never been thoroughly explained, but most of the community locally thought that it had racialist overtones, and it also thought that the police were not particularly interested in fully understanding the context of the fire, and were too quick to rush to judgment and start turning the issue around as though it was a community generated incident. And that just alienated totally not just Black people in Lewisham, but it brought Black people involvement from across the country. And as a councillor, my task at the time was to work with the local council to see how we could respond positively and help make matters better, and that was part of what I was doing by bridging in between the various communities and the organisers of the Day of Action.
Nena: OK, thank you. Did the events of the fire had a – I guess, yes, but what was the impact of the fire on the school community specifically and how did you deal with that?
Russell: Well, it was shocking. It hadn’t really been something that anybody of that age group, the school age community, would experience. It really provoked a tremendous outrage across schools and with parents that this type of event could happen, and it didn’t look as though it was being thoroughly investigated. And so I think that that impression must have made its way down to a lot of young people who themselves felt that suddenly they were being victimised for something that they had nothing to do with. So yes, it was an outrageous imposition on the ways people looked upon themselves at that time, and caused outrage.
Nena: Thank you. Did you actually attend the Black People’s Day of Action?
Russell: Of course.
Nena: Yes.
Russell: Yes, I did. Yes.
Nena: OK.
Russell: We joined the march, all the way from Deptford all the way through to Blackfriars Bridge, and then through Central London, passing through Fleet Street and dealing with all of the hostilities that the whole march had to deal with at the time. So yes, all the way through to Marble Arch where things dispersed.
Nena: So did you perceive a shift in the atmosphere after marching along the way?
Russell: Well, if you are going back to the time, you’ve got to remember, as I say, that there was fear, and there was animosity, and there was discrimination, and there was mistrust. So the actual march itself was not necessarily a pleasant experience. It could be frightening if you looked around and you saw bricks being thrown at you, as you are walking down past building sites, as you’re walking through Fleet Street, and you hear people shouting racist epithets at you as you’re moving. That could be quite frightening.
But you had an inner strength, you had an inner desire to stand up and to be firm because you wanted to show that you would not accept that this was the way things needed to be. And you wanted to argue the case for a campaign for freedom, for justice, and for the rights of the Black community to participate in things that they felt to be important, even a party, without being attacked. So all of those ideas and feelings tumbled through your head as you walked through the demonstration, as you walked along with the demonstration.
Nena: Who did you join the march with? Did you join with anyone, or did you meet any new people along the way?
Russell: Well, I joined the march with a group of people who were from the Deptford area, and as you go on a demonstration you sometimes lose track with who you are with, especially in the hurly-burly of the jostling that happened along the way. And so I met a number of people who I knew, or who were political figures at the time, and we were just able to I suppose experience this desire to strike I suppose a court for change.
Nena: Thank you. Had other demonstrations been part of your life before the Black People’s Day of Action?
Russell: Yes, yes, yes. You see, the context we’re talking about is in the Eighties, the Seventies, when the whole atmosphere around racial justice was quite different from it is now. You’re talking about a time when in Britain there were few voices on the media who were Black, you had no representation in Parliament for the whole Black and Asian community across the country, can you believe that? There were very, very few people who were of, I suppose, international backgrounds that sat on local councils. And therefore, if you wanted to create change and bring around society to value multiculturalism and internationalism, the only way you could do it was out in the streets.
So if you’re asking me was I involved in demonstrations, I mean I must say it’s countless, and it goes back for a very, very long time. Because unless you got out there and you made your voice heard there wasn’t a chance that anybody would listen. And so, yes, I’ve been involved in a number of demonstrations over the years dealing back with, I suppose, the Notting Hill issue, the carnival, rights marches for various campaigns over the time.
Nena: OK, thank you. So you mentioned this specific political climate, and obviously the Black People’s Day of Action today is referred to as one of the key events for the history of the Black community in the UK.
Russell: Hmm.
Nena: But as, again, someone who’s been very involved in politics, even on a more institutional level, but very much part of the local community as well, how would you describe the impact of the march more locally for Lewisham?
Russell: Well, in terms of the voices involved, there are always going to be some people who would, I suppose, take an anti-establishment view and would take a very aggressive posture in relation to the battle for change. I didn’t agree with that position. I believe it’s possible to work for change by making your voices heard within the institutions, and also by being clear about what it is you want. And so, throughout my life, it’s been important to me to seek political change. And the sorts of change that I wanted to see made was at the town hall.
I wanted to see better housing for people who came from the Black community, I wanted to see schools being more dynamic in the way they understood the experiences – the Black experience – so that there would be a change within the culture of the schools. And it would be more important to support achievement rather than – as it happened in some schools – exclusions because they couldn’t handle certain issues or certain children or certain families.
So it was a change in culture within the schooling system, within the town hall. And also a really, really challenging one was changing culture within the local police. And I believe that what the Black People’s Day of Action did was started to get that debate rolling because people thought, “Hello, these guys are really serious. It’s not going to go away. You cannot brush this one under the carpet and hope that it will go away.” And that’s the change I think that happened through Black People’s Day of Action and the further demonstrations that took place around the time.
Nena: Thank you. On a broader level, and more institutional, what was the impact on the UK as a nation, and maybe how was the march perceived by the national political establishment?
Russell: Well, I think if you go back and check the newspaper’s coverage at the time you’ll see that it was fairly hostile. The media did not appreciate at all what was the purpose of the march. And I think if anything, they also had an institutional bias in favour of the police and in favour of the way society was organised. Now, I think all of that’s changed. I think there’s now much more of a willingness to understand the dynamics that come to play when police are involved, and so I think there’s been change there. I think the national debate around race has matured. I wouldn’t say that all the issues are resolved because there is still disadvantage linked to race within our community.
But I feel, as I said, things started to move. And of course, on a more tangible level politically, we ended up with members of Parliament who are Black, much more reflective of the community. We’ve ended up with local town halls having more elected councillors who had origins from overseas and could speak with and on behalf of their community. And I think we’ve also started to have a debate within the whole education system about how you handle people who have historically been disadvantaged by the education process, and begin now to place more of an emphasis on the creation of equality and success. And to me, that’s very, very important and it’s still a big issue that we need to face going forward.
Nena: OK. Thank you. And do you think the march had an impact on yourself more personally?
Russell: Well, it made me realise just how – I suppose how much there still had to be done if we wanted to make change happen in the Eighties. So it drove me to, I suppose, feel the need and desire to try and be more challenging, and to be more demanding of equality and justice and toleration. So it drove me, and inspired me to, I suppose, become far more involved in political change.
Nena: Hmm. OK, thank you. And I know that you’re still very active today on a community level, and you’re the Chair of Golden Oldies, a community care project that works to support Afro Caribbean elders in particular. So if you could describe what idea of community do you try to affirm and realise for that project?
Russell: Well, I say we’re aiming to put fun into lives of our elderly and senior members of the community. Look, they’ve lived a very long life; many of them have worked in fairly arduous jobs, probably more physical jobs than the average member of our community. And so I think they now need to experience the final part of their lives with great joy and happiness. And that’s what we try to do; we try and do things that will make them feel healthier and also at the same time give them a good laugh.
Nena: Yes. [Laughs] That sounds pretty good. And yes, you’ve said a lot about how the political landscape has changed and the whole culture also around demonstrations has changed, and things are really different today. So if you would have to organise a Black People’s Day of Action today, what would it be about?
Russell: I would say that there’s a massive, massive disjuncture between the jobs that Black people do and the jobs that are available to the whole spectrum of the population. And we don’t have anything like the equality in employment as we need to have, and that, to me, is a big, big issue. It really should be the focus of massive numbers of demonstrations going forward. Unless you can get economic equality you are not going to have social equality and you’re not going to get justice in our society, so let’s focus on that going forward.
Nena: OK. And thinking, so if this is what we should be focusing on a broader level, as someone who’s really seen Lewisham changing over time, what are your hopes for the future of this area? What would you say?
Russell: Well, I still think that environmentally the areas where people in Lewisham who are Black live is not at the same level and standard as the rest of the population. And Lewisham Council just has to have a walk around Deptford and a walk around Blackheath, and you can see the difference. It’s stark, it’s real, and I don’t think the council is addressing that issue with the degree of importance that it should. And I feel that there’s a lot of work to be done to make matters better here in Lewisham.
Nena: OK. Thank you. That brings us to an end for me. That was all of my questions, thank you so much.
[End of recorded material at 00:21:36]
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