Category: Black People’s Day of Action

An oral history gathered as part of the In Living Memory project, Pioneers and Protest.

In the interview, Stella discusses her life in Lewisham in the 1980s and her memories of the New Cross Fire and the Black People’s Day of Action.

Parts of this interview are featured in a film produced by the project entitled Pioneers and Protest: Seeking Change.

Transcript

Nena (interviewer): Hi, my name is Nena Bisceglia, and today I’m here with Stella Headley for an interview about the Black People’s Day of Action as part of  IRIE! dance Pioneers and Protest’s project for Living Memory, Lewisham. And today is Thursday 19th of May, and we are at the Moonshot Centre. Hi Stella, thank you so much for being here with us and for your time. I feel very lucky to have the opportunity to talk to you. And this is an interview about oral history, so we want to record your story, that’s why I’m not going to say too much, but I’ll love to have a conversation after this if you want. And could you please spell your name and surname for us, thank you.

Stella (interviewee): So I’m Stella Headley, that’s S-T-E-L-L-A, and Headley is H-E-A-D-L-E-Y.

Nena: Thank you. OK, so just to start with a bit of personal story and background. How would you describe yourself in 1981?

Stella: In 1981?

Nena: Yes.

Stella:  In 1981 I think I’d describe myself as a young rebel, and I was very eager to have my perspectives known. And also I think my dad used to call me a hustler because I used to try and think of ways to earn money to contribute towards the gas and the electric meter. [Laughs]

Nena: OK. Thank you. And can you tell us something about the area you grew up and where you went to school?

Stella: So I grew up in an area called Sydenham which is in the Borough of Lewisham. And opposite us was a park, Mayow Park in Sydenham. And we used to go – I have four sisters, so there were five of us, and so we used to go to that park every day. And where we lived there was a bank where you had to climb down through some bushes. You could go around the long way, but we just used to climb through to the main road and then run across the road to the park with our two dogs following us. And so we knew the park; every single part of the park we knew. So we were brought up in that area.

And in that area there were a lot of big houses with gardens, and so we used to do a – it’s called scrumping where we used to – I used to – I was the youngest, so I would be the one that would get hoisted over the fence to the apple trees or the pear trees or whatever fruit trees it was, and then the rest would follow. And then we’d pack our jumpers or bags or whatever with fruits and then run – [laughs] run home and, I don’t know, make an apple pie, or sometimes we used to collect blackberries.

There seemed to be a lot of bramble around that area. There was a woods, Dacres Road Woods, there was a lot of bramble and blackberries and things, so we’d collect blackberries and apples and things and make apple and blackberry crumbles, yes.

And the school I went to was not far. There was a bridge, a small bridge halfway down Dacres Road. And it was next to a church called –

Nena: Take us back to Dacres Road.

Stella: OK. Yes.

Interviewer 2: Could you pick up from Dacres?

Stella: From?

Interviewer 2: Dacres. Dacres Road?

Stella: Oh, Dacres Road. Yes, so there was a road called Dacres Road right next to where we lived, and there was some woods there called Dacres Woods. It had a big swamp in it, and we used to have a swing made out of a rope and a tyre and we used to try and swing from one side of the swamp to the other without dropping in the swamp. And there was a lot of brambles there, so we used to collect blackberries, and with the apples that we’d scrumped we’d make blackberry, apple crumble. And yes, we did a lot of exploring in the woods. And we used to go there in the evening times, at night times, and tell spooky stories. And I’d be the youngest, I’d always be the one in tears, and then we’d run.

We used to have this thing called Leg It. As soon as you’d hear someone say Leg It, you just run. But yes, so not far from there, there was a bridge next to a church called the Bonhoeffer Church, and when you go over that bridge you were in a different – actually it was a different postcode. So you go over the bridge and you’re in a different postcode. And not far from there was my school, my secondary school, Sydenham Girls School on Dartmouth Road in Forest Hill. And then, yes, so I went to that school from ‘76 to ‘81.

Nena: OK. And how was your education experience?

Stella: My education experience, wow, it was an – yes, it was an experience. See, on the one hand, at home, my dad, he was a record collector and so he used to collect records, and not just music but speech records. And so he had this record called Black Family Day, and it was from 1971, and it was a speech record of a Black Family Civil Rights Day in America. And so on the one hand I was conscious and aware of Black civil rights and things, but then at school I felt that I was stripped away of my rights whilst I was at school. So I had good days and bad days at school, and I think by the time I reached the fourth year of secondary school I opted not to wear school uniform anymore. I didn’t want to wear any form of uniform.

And in the early years whilst I was at the school it was interesting because they put you in groups and streams, and I was in this stream where I was studying History, Classical Studies, Religious Education, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and English, and Maths. And I felt it was a punishment because all my friends were studying courses that I thought were really interesting. And so once you get to the fourth year, you get to choose your options and so I chose not to work towards O Levels and A Levels. I chose to work for just a Certificate of Secondary Education which was a CSE because I found those subjects more interesting for me.

Nena: OK. Thank you. And how would you describe the area of Lewisham at the time, and the community?

Stella: At the time my memories were, from where I lived, we experienced racism. We experienced quite a lot of racism. I have memories of neighbours on one side calling us names. Am I allowed to say the names?

Nena: It’s up to you.

Stella: So you had neighbours on one side not so much shouting, but as soon as you’d go in the garden they would say jungle bunny, golliwog. And then the neighbours on the other side would be singing songs that were clearly offensive. And so we – myself and my sisters – we built up a resilience against that. And sometimes you’d come home from school and there was racist graffiti written on your door with dogs excrement. And so it must’ve been hard for my mum really. It must’ve been hard for my mum because we were quite consciously aware of what racism was.

And my mum’s background was from – she came from Barbados, and she came from the Church of England background, and so she just wanted to assimilate and blend in, but [laughs] we weren’t being allowed to anyway. And so the area was quite racist. I remember walking to the shops and seeing – there’s one man in particular, he was really tall, and as soon as he used to see us he used to do the Heil Hitler sign. And he had an Alsatian dog, and he’d let his dog bark at us. And so sometimes, you know, we got used to his pattern of walking the dog.

And so what we used to do is there was a letterbox on one side of the road, and we used to get a piece of thread and tie it to a milk bottle, [laughs] and put it on top of the letterbox, and then put the other side of the string in the bush or something. So that when he walked past, the bottle would drop and smash. [Laughs] So we used to have our own way of getting our own back at him. But yes, but on a serious note, there was places around Lewisham that you just couldn’t go as a Black person because you would experience racism. And those places were not that far from where you live, so we weren’t welcome in many places, so I think that’s why we used to spend a lot of time in the park.

We used to spend a lot of time in the park because when you go further afield, and you have to walk from a different area then you’re likely to be called names. And even at school I experienced – a friend invited us to her birthday party, and when we got there, at some point I heard her mum say “Oh, I didn’t know, I didn’t realise that all of your friends were Black.” And I just happened to hear because I was going to the toilet at the time. But so there was always that subtle – if not overt, then it was really subtle racism going on. And there were places that just weren’t friendly in Lewisham. Yes, it’s changed a lot now, yes.

Nena: Thank you. So as you just told us, you had a great awareness of racism because of your family specifically and the role of your dad in your life, and because of your daily experiences in Lewisham. But can you tell us a bit about what made you decide to join the march specifically [unintelligible 00:13:24]?

Stella: Yes. [Pauses] I decided to join the march because on the day of the party I met my cousin and my friends, and we met up and then we went to the party. And three of them, the boys, they went inside, and myself and my other school friend we were downstairs. And then she was saying that she had to go, you know, she had to go home. And so we asked the boys, or one of the boys, to walk us to the cab station on New Cross Road. And so we got the cab, and she went home, and I went home. And then in the morning – a few hours later I think it was – the phone was ringing, and it was one of the boys’ mums asking me have I seen her son.

And I said, “Yes, he’s at the party. He was at a party.” And then she started panicking, saying that there was a fire at the party. And then I think I stayed awake until I think the news came on really early in the morning. And then the next day she still couldn’t find him. She kept ringing and I said, “I don’t know where he is,” and then that’s when I saw on the news what had happened. And then my cousin – I call him my cousin but he’s – because we are really close – he was missing as well. And then eventually I found out that he had died. [Pauses] And I think they recognised him by his dental record.

And so when I went to school there was a girl, an English girl, and she made a comment and she said, “Oh, that’s 13 less niggers we have to worry about,” no, “twelve less niggers we have to worry about.” And I got really upset about that, and then we had an argument, and then we had an assembly. And a couple of weeks later there was an assembly. We had an assembly, and this was on the day of the march. Because in between that I’d been going to Andrew’s house, and his brother was burned as well in the fire, and myself and my friends, we used to just go to the house. And his mum used to let us just go into his bedroom and we just used to hang about in the room and just sit on the bed.

And I remember one day I was there, and the brother came in, and I just couldn’t stop looking at his face. Because I think at the time he had jumped out and he was rubbing his face thinking it was dust and something on his face, but he was actually rubbing off his skin off of his face. And so the pigmentation had never come back, but at the time it was very sore, and I kept looking at him and I just remember passing out and just collapsing, and just waking up on the bed. And then after that it was a case of just funerals, and I didn’t really understand about all these funeral arrangements because I was 15 at the time.

[Pauses] And so yes, I think that on the day of the march I started to hear about at meetings that were taking place, and people were angry about it. And then on the day of the march, it was a school day, and then I remember it was raining. It was miserable and raining, and we got called to an assembly, and the whole assembly was about this march and what had happened. And then our headmistress said that after the assembly stops everybody’s to go to their lessons and nobody’s to leave the school premises. And then I just thought, “There’s no way that I’m going to a lesson.” After hearing that whole assembly there was no way I could bear to just go into a classroom with a shut door and just be in that place for the whole day.

And so I asked some of my friends if they’re coming, they said, “No,” they’re not coming. And so just after everybody went to their – I waited around for everybody to go to their classes, until the corridors were quiet and everything, and then I just decided I’m going to the march. And so it [laugh] felt like a long walk to the gates of the school because – and I’m sure – I didn’t look behind, and I didn’t look left or right, but I just felt that I was being watched. And I just walked towards the school gate, and it was one of these – I think it was about seven foot wrought iron gate with spikes at the top.

And I was thinking, “How am I going to get out of here?” you know. And then there was a teacher at the gate, and he said to me, “You know I can’t allow you to go through the gates.” I said, “Yes, I know.” So then he said, “Well, are you planning on going somewhere?” I said, “Yes, I’m going to the march.” And he said, “How are you planning on getting out of the school?” So I said, “I’m climbing over the gate.” And he just looked at me and he just winked at me as if to say go for it, but he couldn’t really. And so as soon as he winked at me, I just thought, “OK, here we go.”

And then I just climbed over the gate and then just headed for the bus garage in – there’s a bus terminus in Forest Hill, and you can get a 171 bus straight to the Marquess of Granby which is opposite Goldsmiths. And so I just got the bus there and then I got off there and then I saw a couple of my friends from school, the ones that was at the party. And then we just joined in the rally at the house. And then when it was time, we just started walking and marching with people.

Nena: Thank you. Thank you for sharing this. Are you happy to continue?

Stella: Mm-hmm.

Nena: So how did you feel when you joined the march? What was the atmosphere?

Stella: I didn’t really understand what was going on, it was just people; there was just lots and lots and lots of people. And I just kept looking in at people’s faces. [Laughs] I just kept looking at people’s faces to see if I knew anybody. And every now and again I’d recognise faces of older teenagers or older people that I knew so I felt comfortable that I’m doing the right thing because all the right people, I felt, were there around me thing. And so it just ended up as me and just one friend, and then we just started to walk. And I remember when we got to Blackfriars there was just things going on. The march started to change and [pauses] – yes, the march started to change, and people were just going in different directions. And then that went on right until the evening. I don’t even know where we were because I didn’t really know.

Like once you get into the area, I didn’t really know the city, and so we were just following just small crowds of people here and there, and so I don’t know whether – I didn’t really understand what the march was at the time, I just knew that I had to be there to represent my friends. And yes, I think we were there till it got dark; we were still there. All I remember was we were still there when it was dark. And when I got home I think my mum or somebody said that they saw me on News at Six or something like that, [laughs] do you know what I mean? But I don’t know, it was just [pauses] – I don’t know, it started off with just people together, and then we ended up just in a small group of people. Then it ended up as just two of us, then we ended up making our way home.

And then after that there was just so much stuff that I started to see in the newspapers, and I kept … Because we’d been consciously aware of racism and civil rights and stuff like that, I started to look at the newspaper clippings. And I think one of them said, “A Black Day in Blackfriars.” And I was thinking, “What does that mean?” And then whereas the local newspaper from round here, South London, said how marchers marched with dignity, you know, and I was thinking “Huh?” And so then I started –anytime a paper came out I started to collect clippings and headlines and stories, and started to just look and see how we were being represented.

And it was the same year, it was my final year at school, 1981, and it was the same year as the uprisings in Brixton. And so that year for me was just – [pauses] I think it was a change for me in terms of I am standing up for my rights now; I’m going be doing work in my community. I became a lot more aware of the social surroundings and inequalities and that thing. And so, yes, it was just a year that I used to listen to a lot of music, but the music I listened to was artists like Curtis Mayfield and Nina Simone. And it was always songs of freedom, or songs of struggle, or songs of your people’s rights.

And so I got more and more into my music, and I think for me that was a way of maybe even coping with it. Because every time anything came up about the New Cross fire it was emotional, it was traumatising. And I was a teenager, and my friends were. We were teenagers and nobody counselled us, nobody offered us any therapy, nobody … There weren’t no healing process for us at all, you know, and so I guess even now, I find it really emotional to talk about, you know.

And I wasn’t a family member of anybody, so it must be just a hundred times worse for them. But there was a group of us young people that we didn’t receive any counselling or anything like that, and so it’s like living with trauma and stress. And every single time it comes up you relive the memory, and you relive the trauma, and you relive all the experiences over and over and over and over again. And we’re talking decades now, but it still feels like it was yesterday.

Nena: Thank you. So you’ve said a lot about the impact of these events on you personally, and also on other people like you, so on the community. And how you described the impact it had on the UK, because obviously to Black people, to say your actions is referred to as a key then for the history of Black people in the UK, but how would you describe it?

Stella: I mean I think a week or so later there was a fire in Ireland and some teenagers perished in that incident. And I think Margaret Thatcher or the Prime Minister at the time sent her condolences, and I think the Queen may have sent her condolences. And it was on the news, and it was in the headlines, and there was a lot of sympathy. There was a lot of outpour from the public of sympathy. And for me, it just made me angry because nothing was said about what had happened in New Cross. And the things that were said, it was painted in a negative way. And when we tried to express ourself through the day of action we were described as a mob, or rioting.

If you look at the headlines you’ll see the way that they described us. When I say “us,” I mean me. And so it was a case of just me becoming even more aware of inequalities and becoming more interested in equality and injustice and that kind of thing. And I think that it’s steered me to, I guess, who I am and how I think now, and what I do, and what’s important – what I consider to be important.

Nena: Thank you. You said you didn’t really get any forms of support for what you went through –

Stella: Mm-hmm.

Nena: – and no recognition as well from the institution. But was there any way that the community – do you think this created any forms of connection within the community or maybe ways you supported each other for this event?

Stella: Yes, I mean like an incident such as that, and the way it was dealt with, it built a lot of mistrust within the authorities against the police. It pulled people closer together because we had things in common; you know, we were there, and sometimes we’d go to some meetings and you’ll see the same people so you’d get a bit of comfort knowing that there’s somebody else there that went through some trauma, you know the trauma that I may have been through, and other people may have been through the same thing.

But genuinely I think that it made people acknowledge each other more, and I think that it brought the community closer together. Because there were teenagers from all areas, lots of different areas throughout the whole of Lewisham, and even out of Lewisham, that it affected, you know? And so yes, I think that I guess for me the impact was that I could see a community that is traumatised and maybe still living with trauma now.

Nena: Yes. About this, I know I watched a YouTube video with an introduction to the Rastafari Movement UK where you speak about how your aim with the movement is the healing and repairing of this trauma and pain that has historical roots. And so, yes, what was the connection between your work now under that people’s direction? How do you see that?

Stella: I think that having had that lived experience I am very perceptive to, I guess, other people’s traumas. I can recognise it, and so maybe I’m an empath, I don’t know, but there’s a saying, “He who feels it, knows it,” and so I want to do work that is empowering and almost giving people a sense of release and freedom from whatever the trauma is. And so the work that I do now is around food, but it’s also around wellbeing. So the projects is food and wellbeing. And so the wellbeing side of it is spiritual wellbeing, economic wellbeing, physical wellbeing, mental wellbeing, and so people will come to us with a whole range of different situations.

And it’s always been about having a conversation with somebody, and listening and hearing, and feeling what the person’s feeling, and then talking and coming up with solutions together. And then so my organisation can then maybe make connections with other organisations, or signpost, or support that person towards the pathway to where they need to get to next. And again, I think it’s all to do with that whole notion of justice or injustice. And I guess, for me it’s that experience – the experience that I had in ‘81, and right from having the comments made from that person in the school, to climbing over that fence and thinking, “I have to go, this is something that I have to do as part of my community.”

And then when I arrived, and seeing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of other people it made me feel, “Yes, I did the right thing, and you should follow your instinct.” And so when people come to my organisation now, and I know that it must have taken a lot for them to either pick up the phone or approach us, and so I feel humbled when someone comes and shares with me because I know what it’s like not to have someone to share with, and so that drives me. It’s a driving thing for me, so yes, I have time for people.

Nena: Thank you. And so, yes, through your activities you’re trying to practice this form of care – holistic I would say – for your community. And so if you have to think about the community of Lewisham today, because you’ve also mentioned that it has changed a lot through the years, and maybe your hopes for this community, what would you say?

Stella: There’s an elder in Lewisham called Jah Shaka, and occasionally I’ll go and talk to him, and we sit down and talk. And I remember one day we were sitting outside his house, and we were just sitting on the wall, talking. And I was saying to him, “So what is it then? What do I need to do to keep on doing my work?” And he’s an elder to me as a Rastafari, and he just said to me, “It’s really simple; it’s not complicated at all.” And then he said to me, “Just practice love and kindness.” You know, just love and kindness. “And just do that, just do love and kindness, and to everybody, no matter who they are, where they’re from, just practice love and kindness.”

And so I guess that’s the essence of the work that I do, and I think that that’s what I try to emulate in the work that I do. And I see that Lewisham has changed a lot from when I was born in Sydenham in ‘65 till now. It’s changed a lot, and there is more, I believe, love and kindness and tolerance in the borough. And so I guess my hopes and dreams is that it just keeps going, it spreads, and we all learn that life is not that complicated, really. And we have so many layers put on top of us through our experiences in life, through media that try to define who we are. But deep down, when you tap in deeply, there is this thing inside of everybody which is love and kindness.

Nena: So to conclude with, I would like to ask you, if you had to organise or think about the Black People’s Day of Action in 2022, what would it be about?

Stella: In 2022 it would be about healing and repair. Yes, it would be about healing and repair. And it would be healing and repair physically, mentally, economically, historically. It would just be a holistic healing of healing and repair. And yes, it’ll be a day of action of healing and repair.

[End of recorded material at 00:39:24]

(P10)

If for any reason you wish to withdraw your name or memory, contact us at engage@gold.ac.uk

An oral history gathered as part of the In Living Memory project, Pioneers and Protest.

In the interview, Norma discusses her life in the 1980s and her experience living in Walworth during the Black People’s Day of Action.

Parts of this interview are featured in a film produced by the project entitled Pioneers and Protest: Seeking Change.

Transcript

Julia (interviewer): So my name’s Julia Honess. We’re at the Southwark Heritage Centre. The date is –

Norma (interviewee): The 14^th.

Julia: – Wednesday 14th June 2022, and I’m interviewing Norma Lawrence about the Black People’s Day of Action. So Norma, I want you to cast your mind back to 1981 and tell me a little bit about your life in England in 1981 or thereabouts.

Norma: OK, in 1981 what was my life like? I was a full-time unpaid carer, just as I am now, but I worked part-time. So during the evening, when my other children were home I’d go to work in the evening, although I was a full-time carer because money wasn’t available like, well, as it is now. It’s still difficult, but you need extra cash, so I had to go to work, so I’d go to work in the evening. And also in the morning, at five o’clock in the morning when everybody’s asleep, I’d go back to another job. So at five o’clock in the morning I’d be catching the bus across the road to go to the city or wherever the work was. So that was part of most of my life, so during ’81. And then we got as far as to – you had the – I wasn’t involved in anything up to that point.

Julia: Can I just ask what the area was?

Norma: What the area was like?

Julia: What area are you talking about?

Norma: Here. The area where we are now.

Julia: Where are we now?

Norma: We’re in Walworth, it’s E17, the Walworth Road, the most famous road, Walworth Road.

Julia: And what was it like round here?

Norma: Very quiet, not many Black people. East Street market, you might find two or three just walking through. No yam and banana in East Street market. If you wanted yam and banana you’d have to go to Brixton. There was somebody who started selling yam and banana, a Jewish chap, and he started selling yam and banana. And what they did, they covered Tower Bridge on Friday, East Street on Saturday. So people would come straight from work and that, but there was no other Black people. Compared to now, majority of the people in East Street market that are shopping now are Black people, which in those days, 1981, there wasn’t many.

Julia: What was life like for a Caribbean woman, a Jamaican woman, in Walworth around that time?

Norma: There would be more problems for young children, like my children, because I’ve got boys. There would be more problem with that there than it would be for me. The time before that, before, in the Seventies when I lived at the other place – and during the Enoch Powell time, that was my time – that was very difficult for me because the children were small. By the time I moved here, they were a lot older so they could defend themself. So most of the places that they would go is – without naming, is a pub around the back there. It’s still there, and just say it’s a very famous pub in Walworth, near East Street. If you are streetwise you’ll know exactly which one I mean, and that’s where they all went.

But they tell me that when they first went in there, before there was enough of them to go in there, they’d be told, “Get out.” And we still see the same. Actually one of them is my next-door neighbour now, twice, two houses along. But until then, more Black people moved in area so they could all go in the same pub, and they all become friends then, yes. But for me, it wasn’t that difficult by then for me, but it was for the children. But before I moved here, during the Enoch Powell time, that was hell.

Julia: And where was that?

Norma: Because I lived on the Tabard Estate, we were the only Black family that lived on the estate, so people used to come and knock on my window, the kitchen window, we lived on the ground floor; “Enoch, Enoch, hoi, hoi, hoi,” and then they smashed the windows and tell us we had to get out, “We don’t want you here.” And then but mostly, for that, I just put a stop to it because the boys – don’t forget, they’re mostly boys, only one girl – I decided that nobody’s going to help us, and we’ve got to do it ourselves.

So one day when it start, we went back to the person – we knew who it was. We went to their house, and me and three of the boys went, and we called them out and I said, “Right, let’s start.” I said to the mothers and the father, “You stay here, don’t you dare move or you’ll have me to deal with,” and let them fight. But then the mother is saying that one of her son that was hit by mine was too young. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this story before.

So she’s saying, “You can’t let your son hit my son because my son is very young.” I said, “Oh, the age matter? Hold on. Go and get your other brother, he’s the same age.” So I said, “One of them could go and get one of the younger ones,” I said, “Now, well they’re the same age.” So that sort of helped to put a little bit of duster on it. But it went on for years. We see the same people; we see the people now. They talk about it at funerals. You send them to get eggs, they come back, all the eggs are broken because they’ve been chased. Oh, by the way, they still go to the same person’s parents’ funeral now because everybody are adults now, yes, and people’s views have changed, you know. So, but for my life, my life wasn’t that bad.

Julia: So before you moved here – thank you. So before you moved here, were you aware of any ways in which people were protesting or demonstrating about some of the issues you’re talking about?

Norma: No. And if I did, I probably wouldn’t be concentrating on that, I’ll be concentrating and raising my children. Remember, they’re all boys, so I had to keep a very close eye on them. So apart from going to work I wouldn’t have done anything else, no. My time would be spent on keeping track of them, where they are, what they’re doing. My activities only start when I move here.

Julia: So what changed then in 1981?

Norma: First of all [pauses] – I’d say first of all like the carers group is slightly different because that used to help the other carers like myself.

Julia: But specifically, what changed around –

Norma: The demonstrating.

Julia: – you joining a demonstration?

Norma: Ah, well say from the situation of the New Cross fire, the way the media and the police were behaving toward – well, the way the police were behaving toward Black people in the first – young Black people in the first place, yes, my brain start telling me that something needs to be done; I need to take part in these things. When this first started, you know, Black people, young, young Black boys being arrested. I could look out of my bedroom window where I looked from upstairs and see they’re grabbing somebody off the street, chuck them in the back of the van, things like that. So I thought, no, something needed to be done.

But I didn’t like the way the police and the media were portraying the loss of 13 lives. So then I heard that there would be a demonstration. Actually I heard it on the radio. So I just make sure there was enough food in the house and told the boys where I was going. And they know what time they had to be back home, you know, everybody had to know where they each other are. And then I walked along here; I think they’d already walked past. They had already gone past, but you could hear the banging of the drums. So I met them at the Elephant and Castle.

Julia: Can I just ask you to go back a bit?

Norma: Yes, OK.

Julia: And just describe that in a bit more detail. So you said that you’d sorted everything out at home, and then you heard and saw the demonstration. Can you just take us back to that and describe it in a bit more detail?

Norma: Yes. Well, before I came out, I could hear the banging of the drums along the street, because I already heard it on the news that it’s going to happen anyway. But so by the time I’d finished what I needed to do in my house, they’d already gone under that bridge. So by the time I got the Elephant they had stopped. Well, I think they’d stopped. I’m not sure where the front was, and I definitely wasn’t in the front, and join it there. And somebody hand me a banner, and I hold one end, and I think it said on it, “Thirteen dead, nothing said,” and that’s what you’re supposed to say; “Thirteen dead, nothing said,” and apart from “We want justice.” So we joined it. So we just joined it at Elephant, then the march carried on.

Julia: What was the atmosphere like?

Norma: The atmosphere? Well, the atmosphere was they were angry. Well, people were angry, and they weren’t angry with anybody in the group, and they weren’t even angry, say, with the police. They were angry of the same reason why they’re there. Like I’m angry because the reason I’m there. I’m going to walk miles, but the only reason why I’m there is because I just do not like the way we are treated, so that’s why I was there. And so I was angry. I wasn’t angry about any individuals, I wasn’t angry that I’m going to start throwing bricks or stone, I’m just angry while I’m there. And everything seems to be fine with people talking to each other at the start of the march. The loudspeaker was going, but because at the back you can’t really tell what’s happening at the front.

But by the time we got to Blackfriars Bridge, at the beginning of the bridge, or towards Blackfriars Bridge, you knew that something is happening. Because in a demonstration, you see, if you’re at the front you don’t know what’s happening at the back, and if you’re at the back you don’t know what’s happening at the front. But then we realise that the police then, there, wanted to turn us back, which didn’t make sense because the only other bridge we would have gone over really is Westminster Bridge, and I definitely know they would’ve stopped you once you tried to get there because they think you’re trying to get to parliament. Just like if you’ve got demonstration now, you try going over Westminster Bridge, they’re going to block you. It’d be better if you went over Waterloo Bridge or Tower Bridge.

And then the police begun to try to turn people back, but we decided we weren’t going to go back, so we just carried on. The rest of it it’s just marching and shouting, so the rest of it is slightly vague how we end up in Fleet Street, and that was the worst thing I could ever experience. The office workers were throwing, emptying the wastepaper bin. That’s how they started first, the wastepaper bin as we went by. And then they start throwing chairs, office chairs, out of the window, and anything they could find they were throwing it out of the window on the demonstration.

And so I want you to imagine this; we are walking along the road there, the stuff is coming over, so now I’m gone on the pavement, just like that pavement there, so I wouldn’t get hit. And the policeman pushed me back out in the road and said, “If you didn’t want to be hit, why did you come?” And I said, “Well, I didn’t come to get hit, I come to support the rest of the people.” I wasn’t rude to him or anything, but he actually pushed me back out, and all hell let loose because things are coming out the building, thrown on people, but the police are not interested in that. The police said we wanted to drag people out of the crowd, and drag them off, and then the fight started; it started with the police.

We marched, we carried on, but I’m not even sure now, till now, how – I think we end up in Hyde Park, because we were moved from different routes. Every road you went down you were cut off and told to go to that one, and when you get to that one, and you were told you weren’t go that way. So actually, what you’re doing, you’re following everyone else. Because you know the route from here to Hyde Park, over that way, but they were changing the route all the time, it got very confusing, and then the trouble started.

That was that, but the next day – until this day I’m sitting here, I have not bought a Sun newspaper, and I will not allow anybody, anyone, to come through my front door with one. So if you’re a workman and you had one, I’ll ask you quite politely, “Could you leave it on the doorstep? You may collect it when you’re leaving.” If you insist that you need it, you don’t come in my house. I will not have The Sun in my house.

Julia: Can you explain a bit about why?

Norma: The day afterwards they describe us as hooligans, and if you look on any review you can see The Sun – actually they describe us, “Blacks Run Riot in London.” That was the big headline, “Blacks Run Riot in London.” We didn’t run riots; it was a demonstration for the rights of these people. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the New Cross fire was a racist thing, it’s the way it was dealt with that angered me, the way the police did it and the media did it.

And even after that, I was angry – angry more than annoyed – is that even the Prime Minister never sent one word of condolence to those family. Neither did the Queen. Now if you think about it, Dunblane, they got some sort of sympathy from the Prime Minister. You had shooting in – that was at Dunblane, and you had other incidents where even the Queen – you had a fire in Ireland where lot of teenagers died, the Queen sent her condolence.

But nobody in the government, either Queen or the Prime Minister at the time, even sent a bit of condolence to the parents of these children. To me, I think it’s outrageous. And so at the time, that was one that – I’d already done the demonstration, but at the time that made me still angry, and I’m still angry until this day for the way these the parents of these children were treated. We know years later – it’s over 40 years now, and they still haven’t come to how it happened. Well, history might tell one day; they’ll find out how it happened. It’s a long way, and there’s a lot of people from it that are still suffering.

I mean, nearest I knew is one of the young man that died, I knew his father from my teenage days, and he changed completely. And once he’d lost his son he just went completely changed. He was a musician, and I think he was the one who gave his son the sound system to play at the party, at aged 17. And I think he blamed himself; if I didn’t give him the music it wouldn’t have happened.

So Walworth did take part in the demonstration, just exactly where we are sitting now. So you can imagine if you were standing here you’d see the procession going past and you’d hear the bang of the drum. So it is still here, and the railway bridge is still there, but they went under. So that’s most of my memory of going on the demonstration. I’ve never been in another one since; that was the only one I’ve actually been on. I do more active things, but – stand up and demonstrate something, but to march, that was the only one I’ve done and that was 40 years ago.

Julia: And so thank you, that’s so … It’s really moving, also, to be sitting here and you’re looking out on the road that you’re talking about.

Norma: Yes, yes, exactly. Yes, exactly, and to watch these people go. Yes, it’s just there. And even their railway bridge, because it’s like a signpost they have gone on the railway bridge, because you’ve left Walworth now, you’re going Elephant and Castle. You’re going into Elephant and Castle, so it’s supposed to come from New Cross, Camberwell Green, but it’s along Walworth Road and under the railway. And it just shows you how the area has changed, because there was a petrol station on that side of the road and there was also one this side of the road.

Julia: So you said that you’d … It certainly has changed.

Norma: It has.

Julia: You said that you haven’t been on a demonstration since, but you described yourself as being active and taking part in them.

Norma: I take that; I’m an activist. Yes, I’m an activist. If I see something that’s happening that I think it shouldn’t be happening, I will say so. And if I mean it, I think I’ll stand up outside with the banner, I will. And if it mean I need to stalk the person in authority who needs to deal with it, so be it.

Julia: Can you describe some of the campaigns that you have been involved in?

Norma: After the Brixton riot, I also helped to set up the lay inspector to the police station, where – because we didn’t like, again, the way people were treated when they were arrested by the police. So we set up a group in Southwark, and that gave you – at the time it was called Visitors to Police Station. And so we could go in any police station in the borough anytime, day or night, whenever time you chose. And you had to be trained by the Home Office, you also had to sign that thing. Because I remember them saying if you saw the Prime Minister in the police station you weren’t allowed to come out and tell anybody that you see him. That’s how they explained it, an easier way. Mind you, they did it, but we weren’t allowed to do it.

I did six years, so as I say, I went round to all the police station in the borough. And what it was is to make sure that they were treated properly, they were given that one phone call. We actually changed the old police station for the new one. So it used to be the old Carter Street, and that was changed for the new Walworth police station. Because the old police station, in the heatwave – heatwave like we’re going to have now – if you were in there and you wanted water, and you called for it – I won’t use the language that they’d tell you to do, but  you can guess for yourself. The officers were quite nasty to people that was arrested.

Now my view is you are arrested. They’re there to look after you properly until you go to court, and you’re charged. We weren’t concerned of what you did or why you’re there, it’s just that the law was obeyed by we’re looking after you. Make sure the place was clean, the cell was clean, and things like that. And most of the people we saw during that time was immigration. Most of the people there were immigration. Group Four, the security company, used to come and collect them probably every two weeks. You could be there for two weeks until they come and collect you.

The police weren’t responsible for you. All they did was to make sure you’ve been fed, and you don’t leave, so they don’t question you. But now that was one of the reasons why I joined that one. So I did that for three years, and then the Home Office asked me to do another three, so I did six years.

Julia: I know you’ve done a lot of campaigning and have been an activist for all the time that I’ve known you.

Norma: Oh yes, yes, yes, I know, and then I dropped.

Julia: Are there any other campaigns or activism that you think directly relate to your experiences as a Black woman living in the area or who’d taken part in that demonstration?

Norma: I hadn’t done any activities because being a Black woman, I do activity because me, myself, I think whatever activities I take part, whatever it is, I want my present to be heard. I’ve got something to say, and I’ll say it, and God help anybody else to try to stop me from saying it. So I join any group, that whether it’s the Walworth Society, because I think I want the area I live in to look better; I don’t want everything to be ripped down. So whatever group there is that I think it’s working for the common good of the area.

I also think, as a Black person, my voice should be heard, and I should have my foot around the table like everybody else. So it doesn’t all of it means you have to demonstrate on a march, you can still use your voice. And I’ll attend enough meetings, and I’ll stop them in their tracks in the meeting to give them my view. And in most cases, yes, they normally listen as most people know.

So it doesn’t always have to go on marches. If there was a march from here down to Camberwell Green, and it was – I mean I’ve demonstrated outside King’s College Hospital for mental health, but that’s with a group of people. It’s not to say as a Black woman I’m demonstrating on Black people’s mental health, it’s mental health after the people where I live. If the situation arises where it had to be done as a Black issue then I’ll go do that on the Black issue. But at the moment I find what I can see is at the moment is – in this area anyway, it’s an issue for everyone rather than a Black issue. Some areas it is, but this area it isn’t. I think because we’ve got more of us here and more of us have … And people change as well.

Julia: Thank you. That brings us to my last question which is, we’ve been asking people if they were going to take part in … Imagine you were going to take part or even organise a Black People’s Day of Action for 2022, what would it be about?

Norma: Actually it probably would … Yes, if I was going to be in one, I’d do it – it would be the Windrush because that’s still ongoing. And I think that is so unfair. And that was planned. That was no accident, yes. And if you could treat those people the way that they’re still being treated, I would go on a march now for the Windrush. Because when I think of those people who came here then, they were invited, they were asked to come, and they were needed because the people of this country didn’t …

You see, after the war, most – a lot of the men, young men, died, so there wasn’t enough people to build the country back. So the British government went to places like Italy and the Caribbean to look for workers to come and build a country. And then obviously these people, they were British citizen. My passport said that you are a British citizen, and you should be endeavoured by a magistrate. Have you ever seen one of them, what it says inside them? Oh, about Her Majesty, whatever, the Queen.

And for them, after that, to treat people in that way. That some people went on holiday, some people went to funerals, and find they couldn’t get back. And the cheek of it is, if you’ve been out, when you do find you can do it, apply for it now, “Oh, you can’t because you’ve been out the country too long.” “Well why were you out the country so long?” “Because you kept me out.” So I spend my time telling my white counterparts how it was. They might not like it; they don’t have to listen, but I haven’t come across anyone who hasn’t listened yet to explain to them how it happened and how all this started.

We knew about you in the Caribbean, we knew about the English – I don’t want to say British – we knew about the English more than the English knew about themselves. We celebrate every time the Queen had a baby. Everything had the Queen over your head; the school, the Queen over your head; the hospital, the Queen. The other generation, my mother’s generation, had a photo of the Queen in the house. I mean, my children wouldn’t have one past the front door, but my mother did. I mean even she still; even she was collecting photos of the royal family. I mean she’s left that in her legacy that we’ve got all photos and books and all things when Charles was little, because people of that era, they collected these things.

And I think for what they did, and we are not going anywhere. So if there was a Black People Action Day – and that should be done in the middle of the week like that one was done, because that was done on a working day – it should be done on a working day and not on a weekend, a working day. Not because we’re trying to disrupt, but to see how – give people more initiative that you’re quite willing to give up your day’s pay for what you think is right, just like we did, the previous generation did. So if I was going to go on a demonstration, a day of action, that’s what I would do.

There probably are other things, but not things that I come across. It’s also different for the next generation; they probably find a different struggle, so they might want to demonstrate on something else because they’ve got different struggle to what the older generation would’ve had. A different struggle. Like the people in the Nineties, they probably would be demonstrating Stop and Search. The people in 2022 might want to demonstrate on something else. It might be jobs. I’m not sure what they ..

Oh probably I might even want to object on immigration, because we know the immigration runs in two stage. One, if you’re blonde and blue eyed you’re fine. If you’re not blonde and blue eyed you ain’t coming. So you can see the difference between Romania and the other section. So there was no room. Before the war in Ukraine we had no room, but all of a sudden we found – you know, room is found. So not that I don’t sympathise for the people in Ukraine, but what I’m saying is there’s like two sides.

Because even today, a lot of these people they’re putting back on the airplane to go back to Rwanda, they’re … Afghanistan, Iraq, these are all the people that we dropped bombs on, and these are the people trying to leave the country because their country has got no infrastructure. And we said, “No.” We agreed, because that’s what they told the court, we’re doing what the public wants us to do. So in other words, the public doesn’t want those people who we went and destroyed their country, but the public don’t mind the ones we take, like Russia destroying their country.

And as the Ukraine man pointed out, “It shouldn’t happen. We are blonde and blue eyes.” That’s the sort of thing you expect in African countries, so you might find the next generation wants to demonstrate on that. But mine is what happened to the Windrush. It didn’t affect any of my family because although my mother came here in ‘48, she came, she actually went and got her papers. She went and paid for hers, and I went and bought mine; I’ve got mine as well. Just to be on the safe side, double whammy; I’ve got my mother’s and I’ve got mine.

So a lot of people didn’t because then they lost a lot of their papers as well. Some people did, and their family have lost it. The trouble is in our family we store things, we keep things. I’ve got my mother’s ration book still, so … So if we had to prove that she was here – and actually I’ve told this to my children, the reason why you keep certain papers, you never know. Nanny kept her ration book to prove that – and it’s got her name on it – she was here at the end of the war, so that made her actually being here. So it walks down to your grandparents. So that’s where we are.

Julia: Thank you so much for all your time and your insights as always. I just want to ask if there’s anything that you want to look back on over your interview, if there’s anything you want to say differently, or anything that you want to add.

Norma: Yes, the only thing is, these stories need to be told because they are going to vanish. I mean this is not the first one I’ve done. Because if they’re not told and recorded they would just disappear like lots of other things disappear. And traditionally, a lot of these things, although they happen, nobody records them. Like they’re saying, a lot of youngsters should be talking to their parents, these people up here, to find out how did they manage, what are their stories. You know, how did they manage when they first arrived.

I mean there’s a lady that we met the other day, I know two or three people who has tried to get hold of her to get their story. And her story’s so funny, and she makes us really laugh, because she said the first time she went to church and saw a harvest festival she’d never seen such beautiful food. And she’d give her feelings about the food. And it’s different with her; she came at 19 year old when lots of other people came at six and seven, so you see the different experience.

That’s why sometime, when you’re keeping these records, you need to get them from different ages of people because a person who come here 15 has got a different concept. A person who come here at 19, who had to go to work, sees things differently, and things around them differently. But things like this, they need to be recorded. And I think more people need to be – even youngsters – talking to their parents and record things.

We didn’t talk to my mother, but what we did, she did a lot of scribbling, and she left a lot of things that we can use. So we’ve passed some of it on to the Windrush oral people, stories about my mother and things like that. So that’s what I would, well I think a good idea doing it for that reason, keeping.

Julia: Thank you very much.

Norma: OK.

[End of recorded material at 00:38:40]

 

(P9)

If for any reason you wish to withdraw your name or memory, contact us at engage@gold.ac.uk

An oral history gathered as part of the In Living Memory project, Pioneers and Protest.

In the interview, Russell discusses his experience as an educator and councillor in Lewisham and his memories of the Black People’s Day of Action.

Parts of this interview are featured in a film produced by the project entitled Pioneers and Protest: Seeking Change.

Transcript

Nena (interviewer): Hi, my name is Nena Bisceglia, and today I’m here with Russell Profitt at the Moonshot Centre. It’s 10th May 2022, and I’m going to be interviewing you about the Black People’s Day of Action. Thank you so much for your time and for being here with me. And I feel very lucky to have this opportunity. And English is not my first language, so if you don’t understand anything on what I say, just ask me and I repeat. OK, so I wanted to start with a bit of background and a bit of your just personal story. So if you would have to describe yourself in 1981 what would you say?

Russell (interviewee): I was a local councillor in the Lewisham Council for the ward Grinling Gibbons, and at the same time I was an educator. I worked at the Grinling Gibbons Primary School as its deputy and then its headteacher.

Nena: OK, thank you. And I’ve seen your interview in Uprising by Steve McQueen and the way you talk about the racism faced by Black young people in Lewisham and the politics of the scapegoat. So can you tell me a bit more about Lewisham at that time?

Russell: Well, going back to that time it’s important to understand that circumstances were different. At that time the way society looked at the Black community was quite, quite different. The community were looked upon as immigrants who had come to this country and who were out to take out of the country as much benefit as they could without giving anything back. And that imagery was wrong because we came to help build the United Kingdom and we needed to have the respect as equal and true participants, but that was not the case.

And many, many people tried to turn it in such a way that it made white people angry at the presence of the Black community across London. And that was quite heightened in an area of disadvantage, which is where most of those who were involved in the incidents at the time lived. Most Black people lived around the Deptford area, and so it was important that we get that context in to understanding what then led to the difficulties that followed.

Part of the difficulties at the time were not just public perception, but we had a police that were, in essence, managing the local situation that did not have anything like an empathy or understanding of the needs of Black people, particularly Black children and Black youth, and often reacted in hostile ways that made matters worse for all concerned.

Nena: OK, thank you. So in relation to this, coming to the events of the Black People’s Day of Action, you mentioned that at the time you were Deputy Head of Grinling Gibbons, and also local councillor. So if you can tell me what kind of roles you played in those events in your positions.

Russell: Yes, well as a local councillor I had contact with some of the families and I was involved in some of the reactions to the New Cross fire which was the issue behind the Black People’s Day of Action. The file was a vicious and tragic in incident that has never been thoroughly explained, but most of the community locally thought that it had racialist overtones, and it also thought that the police were not particularly interested in fully understanding the context of the fire, and were too quick to rush to judgment and start turning the issue around as though it was a community generated incident. And that just alienated totally not just Black people in Lewisham, but it brought Black people involvement from across the country. And as a councillor, my task at the time was to work with the local council to see how we could respond positively and help make matters better, and that was part of what I was doing by bridging in between the various communities and the organisers of the Day of Action.

Nena: OK, thank you. Did the events of the fire had a – I guess, yes, but what was the impact of the fire on the school community specifically and how did you deal with that?

Russell: Well, it was shocking. It hadn’t really been something that anybody of that age group, the school age community, would experience. It really provoked a tremendous outrage across schools and with parents that this type of event could happen, and it didn’t look as though it was being thoroughly investigated. And so I think that that impression must have made its way down to a lot of young people who themselves felt that suddenly they were being victimised for something that they had nothing to do with. So yes, it was an outrageous imposition on the ways people looked upon themselves at that time, and caused outrage.

Nena: Thank you. Did you actually attend the Black People’s Day of Action?

Russell: Of course.

Nena: Yes.

Russell: Yes, I did. Yes.

Nena: OK.

Russell: We joined the march, all the way from Deptford all the way through to Blackfriars Bridge, and then through Central London, passing through Fleet Street and dealing with all of the hostilities that the whole march had to deal with at the time. So yes, all the way through to Marble Arch where things dispersed.

Nena: So did you perceive a shift in the atmosphere after marching along the way?

Russell: Well, if you are going back to the time, you’ve got to remember, as I say, that there was fear, and there was animosity, and there was discrimination, and there was mistrust. So the actual march itself was not necessarily a pleasant experience. It could be frightening if you looked around and you saw bricks being thrown at you, as you are walking down past building sites, as you’re walking through Fleet Street, and you hear people shouting racist epithets at you as you’re moving. That could be quite frightening.

But you had an inner strength, you had an inner desire to stand up and to be firm because you wanted to show that you would not accept that this was the way things needed to be. And you wanted to argue the case for a campaign for freedom, for justice, and for the rights of the Black community to participate in things that they felt to be important, even a party, without being attacked. So all of those ideas and feelings tumbled through your head as you walked through the demonstration, as you walked along with the demonstration.

Nena: Who did you join the march with? Did you join with anyone, or did you meet any new people along the way?

Russell: Well, I joined the march with a group of people who were from the Deptford area, and as you go on a demonstration you sometimes lose track with who you are with, especially in the hurly-burly of the jostling that happened along the way. And so I met a number of people who I knew, or who were political figures at the time, and we were just able to I suppose experience this desire to strike I suppose a court for change.

Nena: Thank you. Had other demonstrations been part of your life before the Black People’s Day of Action?

Russell: Yes, yes, yes. You see, the context we’re talking about is in the Eighties, the Seventies, when the whole atmosphere around racial justice was quite different from it is now. You’re talking about a time when in Britain there were few voices on the media who were Black, you had no representation in Parliament for the whole Black and Asian community across the country, can you believe that? There were very, very few people who were of, I suppose, international backgrounds that sat on local councils. And therefore, if you wanted to create change and bring around society to value multiculturalism and internationalism, the only way you could do it was out in the streets.

So if you’re asking me was I involved in demonstrations, I mean I must say it’s countless, and it goes back for a very, very long time. Because unless you got out there and you made your voice heard there wasn’t a chance that anybody would listen. And so, yes, I’ve been involved in a number of demonstrations over the years dealing back with, I suppose, the Notting Hill issue, the carnival, rights marches for various campaigns over the time.

Nena: OK, thank you. So you mentioned this specific political climate, and obviously the Black People’s Day of Action today is referred to as one of the key events for the history of the Black community in the UK.

Russell:  Hmm.

Nena: But as, again, someone who’s been very involved in politics, even on a more institutional level, but very much part of the local community as well, how would you describe the impact of the march more locally for Lewisham?

Russell: Well, in terms of the voices involved, there are always going to be some people who would, I suppose, take an anti-establishment view and would take a very aggressive posture in relation to the battle for change. I didn’t agree with that position. I believe it’s possible to work for change by making your voices heard within the institutions, and also by being clear about what it is you want. And so, throughout my life, it’s been important to me to seek political change. And the sorts of change that I wanted to see made was at the town hall.

I wanted to see better housing for people who came from the Black community, I wanted to see schools being more dynamic in the way they understood the experiences – the Black experience – so that there would be a change within the culture of the schools. And it would be more important to support achievement rather than – as it happened in some schools – exclusions because they couldn’t handle certain issues or certain children or certain families.

So it was a change in culture within the schooling system, within the town hall. And also a really, really challenging one was changing culture within the local police. And I believe that what the Black People’s Day of Action did was started to get that debate rolling because people thought, “Hello, these guys are really serious. It’s not going to go away. You cannot brush this one under the carpet and hope that it will go away.” And that’s the change I think that happened through Black People’s Day of Action and the further demonstrations that took place around the time.

Nena: Thank you. On a broader level, and more institutional, what was the impact on the UK as a nation, and maybe how was the march perceived by the national political establishment?

Russell: Well, I think if you go back and check the newspaper’s coverage at the time you’ll see that it was fairly hostile. The media did not appreciate at all what was the purpose of the march. And I think if anything, they also had an institutional bias in favour of the police and in favour of the way society was organised. Now, I think all of that’s changed. I think there’s now much more of a willingness to understand the dynamics that come to play when police are involved, and so I think there’s been change there. I think the national debate around race has matured. I wouldn’t say that all the issues are resolved because there is still disadvantage linked to race within our community.

But I feel, as I said, things started to move. And of course, on a more tangible level politically, we ended up with members of Parliament who are Black, much more reflective of the community. We’ve ended up with local town halls having more elected councillors who had origins from overseas and could speak with and on behalf of their community. And I think we’ve also started to have a debate within the whole education system about how you handle people who have historically been disadvantaged by the education process, and begin now to place more of an emphasis on the creation of equality and success. And to me, that’s very, very important and it’s still a big issue that we need to face going forward.

Nena: OK. Thank you. And do you think the march had an impact on yourself more personally?

Russell: Well, it made me realise just how – I suppose how much there still had to be done if we wanted to make change happen in the Eighties. So it drove me to, I suppose, feel the need and desire to try and be more challenging, and to be more demanding of equality and justice and toleration. So it drove me, and inspired me to, I suppose, become far more involved in political change.

Nena:  Hmm. OK, thank you. And I know that you’re still very active today on a community level, and you’re the Chair of Golden Oldies, a community care project that works to support Afro Caribbean elders in particular. So if you could describe what idea of community do you try to affirm and realise for that project?

Russell: Well, I say we’re aiming to put fun into lives of our elderly and senior members of the community. Look, they’ve lived a very long life; many of them have worked in fairly arduous jobs, probably more physical jobs than the average member of our community. And so I think they now need to experience the final part of their lives with great joy and happiness. And that’s what we try to do; we try and do things that will make them feel healthier and also at the same time give them a good laugh.

Nena: Yes. [Laughs] That sounds pretty good. And yes, you’ve said a lot about how the political landscape has changed and the whole culture also around demonstrations has changed, and things are really different today. So if you would have to organise a Black People’s Day of Action today, what would it be about?

Russell: I would say that there’s a massive, massive disjuncture between the jobs that Black people do and the jobs that are available to the whole spectrum of the population. And we don’t have anything like the equality in employment as we need to have, and that, to me, is a big, big issue. It really should be the focus of massive numbers of demonstrations going forward. Unless you can get economic equality you are not going to have social equality and you’re not going to get justice in our society, so let’s focus on that going forward.

Nena: OK. And thinking, so if this is what we should be focusing on a broader level, as someone who’s really seen Lewisham changing over time, what are your hopes for the future of this area? What would you say?

Russell: Well, I still think that environmentally the areas where people in Lewisham who are Black live is not at the same level and standard as the rest of the population. And Lewisham Council just has to have a walk around Deptford and a walk around Blackheath, and you can see the difference. It’s stark, it’s real, and I don’t think the council is addressing that issue with the degree of importance that it should. And I feel that there’s a lot of work to be done to make matters better here in Lewisham.

Nena: OK. Thank you. That brings us to an end for me. That was all of my questions, thank you so much.

[End of recorded material at 00:21:36]

 

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