Category: Caribbean textiles and dressmaking

An oral history collected by Joy Prime as part of her In Living Memory project, A Caribbean Couturier in Lewisham.

In the interview, Sister Butler discusses learning to sew in Jamaica, her journey to the UK, and her experiences living in Lewisham.

Transcript

Joy (interviewer): Sister Butler, first of all I want to say thank you for agreeing to do this interview. Your participation is really greatly appreciated and I’m hoping that it’s as enjoyable experience for you as it is going to be for me.

I’ve known you for many years and I’ve kind of known what you do. But today I hope to know what you do more intimately and have an opportunity to really appreciate the kind of work that you’ve done over the years and give you a chance to share that knowledge and experience with the rest of us.

Just before we get started, for our record, can you please just tell us your name, where you were born and your age please?

Sister Butler (interviewee): I was born in Jamaica. [Pause] I was born in Jamaica, St Catherine and my village was Browns Town. I’m 85.

Joy: Thank you. So, Sister Butler for the purpose of everybody else that’s listening I’m going to explain why I call you Sister Butler because I think it’s something that’s quite significant. That’s because I’ve known you through the church community for many years now and that’s how we refer to each other because although we came here from many different islands and different places and different families, we always saw each other as sisters and brothers and it’s a mark of respect as well. So even in this situation I’m still going to refer to you in that way.

So now we’re going to get into the main part of the interview and we’re going to start off by talking about your personal background, your life story if you like. So I’d like if you can share with us a little bit about your background? Perhaps first telling us a bit more about where you grew up, the school you went to and the education that you would have had before coming to England?

Sister Butler: Well I had elementary schooling. [Pause]

Joy: What school did you go to?

Sister Butler: I went to Pontier Baptist School.

Joy: Was that a big school?

Sister Butler: Yes, big school.

Joy: What about the education that you left school with? What do you remember about the learning that you did? What subjects you were taught?

Sister Butler: The subjects, as an elementary school they go through everything, all the basics like anywhere else. That was maths, English, history, the lot. I just started to do my exams but actually I didn’t finish it because my father was not very well and so he couldn’t afford to pay for school for me. So I went to do sewing instead. So from the age of about 17 I started to go to sewing school, which I enjoyed myself very much with the other girls.

Joy: OK so tell me a little bit more about the sewing school? What do you remember about the school?

Sister Butler: Well the school we had a lot of fun because we were all the same age group. Yes my father used to pay wages for this school, which wasn’t easy for him but he did try.

Joy: Do you remember the kind of things that you were taught to make?

Sister Butler: [Laughs] Oh gosh, I remember making skirts and a top. I did one for my brother and he spoiled it a bit. [Laughs] But he didn’t take it very serious. We just laughed about it and put a patch in it. [Laughs] Then after that I never stopped doing sewing.

Joy: Did you use a pattern to make the clothes or did you cut freehand?

Sister Butler: We used to cut freehand. That’s why my brothers – [Laughs]

Joy: Oh I’ve got you yes. Did you have to make for other people?

Sister Butler: Yes.

Joy: So they taught you how to work with clients?

Sister Butler: Yes, my sisters and brothers, I used to do a bit of sewing for them.

Joy: Coming out of the school environment now, did you sew for other people in the district as a young –

Sister Butler: Not a lot but I did used to. From the time you say you’re going to sewing school, everybody wants you to do their sewing, your family.

Joy: OK. So outside of that did you do any other job in Jamaica before you came to England?

Sister Butler: Yes. I spent a few months with my sister and then there was a lady, she used to work at the clean factory, she used to do the cook, so I used to work with her.

Joy: OK. So Sister Butler when you came to England, first of all do you remember how old you were?

Sister Butler: 21.

Joy: How did you travel when you came? Do you remember?

Sister Butler: Yes I do. I travel by aeroplane. I remember when they had the propeller, so we had to stop I think in Bermuda and to refill again. It’s just these years I’m thinking, “Oh my gosh what a flight.” We were so happy, it was about three of us and this journey, we had fun on the plane. Didn’t even think of the propeller. [Laughs]

Joy: It felt safe?

Sister Butler: Yeah we did feel safe because I didn’t understand.

Joy: Had you travelled on a plane before then?

Sister Butler: No never, that’s the first time.

Joy: Do you remember the name of the airline that you travelled with?

Sister Butler: [Pause] I should really but I don’t. It was Chinese or something, I can’t remember.

Joy: OK, it doesn’t matter if you can’t remember. So you arrived in London. Where did you go from the airport and how was that? Were you met by someone?

Sister Butler: Yeah. They were expecting me because I went to a family house. They were expecting me the other day and I came the day before. But I knew exactly where I was going and things like that.

Joy: Let’s talk a little bit about your motivation first of all. So what made you decide to come to England?

Sister Butler: Because I think I would get a decent job. I came for the job really.

Joy: What job were you hoping to get?

Sister Butler: Anything. [Laughs] Whatever’s going. So I had to go to the labour exchange the other day and they offer you lots of jobs. Some you wouldn’t have and some you would try.

Joy: Do you remember what the first job was that you did?

Sister Butler: I used to work at Standard Telephone, that’s my first job. Well it was the owner of the house, he used to go under the water and across, so he took me and there were lots of jobs over there.

Joy: OK, over?

Sister Butler: Over the water, we had to go down and there was water all around you and then you go over the factories and the houses.

Joy: Where was this? Do you remember what part of London it was?

Sister Butler: That’s what I’m saying. We went to the – it’s where the 180 bus stop there.

Joy: Do you mean in Greenwich?

Sister Butler: Yes.

Joy: The Isle of Dogs?

Sister Butler: No it wasn’t. But something like that, over there.

Joy: Where you go through the tunnel and it takes you under the water to get to the other side?

Sister Butler: Exactly.

Joy: Oh yes, I know where you mean. I grew up around that area as well. So tell me about your first impressions when you first arrived in England, got off the plane and you were finally here, what’s your first impressions?

Sister Butler:  I couldn’t believe it. I was looking really for somewhere bright and nice, it was all dark and the houses – I couldn’t get it. Back home you know you have nice painted houses and they look beautiful. So I was coming to see something even better than that, but I was a bit disappointed. They were dark, the houses. Which I understand is the smoke. They used to use lots of –

Joy: From the coal fires?

Sister Butler: [Laughs] Yes.

Joy: And the smoke coming out of the chimneys?

Sister Butler: Yes, it was so different.

Joy: So your first impression wasn’t very good. What about the place where you stayed? Tell me a little bit about your first home in England?

Sister Butler: That one was three ladies of us used to be living in the house. We got on very well. This was the time when the fellow bought me across the water and I got this job. That was £6 a week. I think that’s as far as I know.

Joy: And £6 a week that was fairly reasonable money for that time, all them years ago I imagine?

Sister Butler: Yes. I was thinking, “You’re lucky, you’ve got £6 a week.”

Joy: And you had to pay rent out of that?

Sister Butler: Yes and shopping. When you spend £20 a whole big –

Joy: You got a lot of shopping?

Sister Butler: Yes.

Joy: Are there any standout experiences from that time, that was particularly exciting or that you thought something that really stayed with you?

Sister Butler: Yes we used to go to pictures almost every week or went to look for relative, north London, because I have a brother living in north London.

Joy: How did you travel?

Sister Butler: By bus, you have to pay your fares.

Joy: So coming to England and this is a new place, how was it travelling from one end of London to another? How did you feel?

Sister Butler:  I felt great.

Joy: Exciting, I guess?

Sister Butler: Yes. [Laughs] Because you are going out.

Joy: Did you find it easy finding your way around London?

Sister Butler: Yes because I just ask questions and there you are.

Joy: OK so you’ve told me a little bit about your work experience. The job that you’ve just said, how long did you do that?  Do you remember?

Sister Butler: I can’t tell you. The ladies, I was working with another few ladies at work and they said to me after a while, “You sit down.” But they were out of order. They said, “You sit down,” because the boss was coming around and they knew it. They said, “You sit down.” And they sacked me. Yeah. That was awful.

Joy: Because you sat down when you shouldn’t have been?

Sister Butler: Exactly.

Joy: Oh wow. So what happened after that?

Sister Butler:  I have to go and look for another job. I can’t think what I started with. [Pause]

Joy: You don’t remember?

Sister Butler: My other job? [Pause] Yes I was working. I had to take the train and –Murphy Richards, we used to sort out the good from the bad but I can’t remember how much I used to get from that one though.

Joy: Do you remember where that was?

Sister Butler:  That was at Sydenham.

Joy: Yes, so still in the local borough. So tell me about the sewing that you did in England, how did you get into that work?

Sister Butler: I think I mentioned it to labour exchange and I think they kind of send you for different interviews. So they probably send me to that one, I can’t remember very well?

Joy: Would you have been, when you did do that kind of work, were you working at a factory or from home?

Sister Butler:  I used to work at home when everybody else sleeping I’m on the machine. They would bring me a big sack of work and then I would finish them off as quickly as I can so I could get another one.

Joy: What kind of garments did you make for them?

Sister Butler: I used to sew for C&A. Do you remember C&A?

Joy: Yes.

Sister Butler: They’re not around now or maybe called another name, I’m not sure.

Joy: I have seen them in other places but they’re not in the borough anymore.

Sister Butler: So I used to sew at home and I used to sew at the factory sometimes.

Joy: Do you remember any of the types of garments you did?

Sister Butler: Sometimes two piece suit or trousers. I used to like the trousers, I finished them quick. [Laughs] When I say trouser, little jacket too.

Joy: Did you ever see any of the things that you made? Any of the styles that you made?

Sister Butler: Yes, at Lewisham yes.

Joy: How did that feel?

Sister Butler: Good. [Laughs]

Joy: I can imagine. So you mainly did this from home, were there any opportunities for you to do more than that or be promoted within the company or be trained to do something more, something different?

Sister Butler: I used to do buttonholes and hemming and finishing.

Joy: So I’m still talking about your sewing and designing etc. So you worked for C&A for example. Did you do any work like this for other people? Family or friends? Tell me about this then?

Sister Butler: Yes, I used to make coats for my friend’s child and mine. Both of them were almost together, Jen and this other lady who you wouldn’t know. Yeah I made two maxi coats.

Joy: What other garments? Did you ever do like dresses or?

Sister Butler: Yeah I did dresses, do dresses from home.

Joy: What about occasion, like where would they be wearing the garments that you made? Were they formal for example or was it casual clothing?

Sister Butler: Can’t remember.

Joy: It was a long time ago.

Sister Butler: Yeah. They used to carry lots of clothes for you to make. My friends and family.

Joy: So were there other people in your area that did similar work to you?

Sister Butler: Yes.

Joy: Do you want to tell us a little bit about that? If you connected with each other or shared your experiences?

Sister Butler: Yes we did because, with the girl you’re talking about, she used to help me. I don’t remember if your mum used to, I can’t remember. We were living quite close.

Joy: Yes. So you were all making similar types of clothing and then you’d make stuff for your family as additional?

Sister Butler: Yes.

Joy: So I’m still talking about sewing, making clothes, for the factories, for family etc. When you think about the sewing and the making that you did here, how does it compare to your experience in Jamaica?

Sister Butler: You would be surprised but I think Jamaica sewing was very good. But over here you go faster really. Because I didn’t have an electric machine at home.

Joy: OK what kind of machine did you have at home?

Sister Butler: Just a hand one.

Joy: The Singer ones?

Sister Butler: Yes. [Laughs]

Joy: You have to actually wind the wheel with your hands? Was it one of those?

Sister Butler: You mean the thread? No, no.

Joy: It was a foot pedal one?

Sister Butler: Yeah we had the foot pedal one and you have the hand one.

Joy: So the speed would not have been the same?

Sister Butler: No.

Joy: But in terms of the garments that you made for people, how do you compare that to the kinds of things that you would have had to make there? Was there any comparison, similar, different?

Sister Butler: I think back home was better because you have a lot of time to do it. Over here you haven’t got much time, you have to really rush it.

Joy: Because the more you do you get paid more?

Sister Butler: Exactly.

Joy: I understand that, yeah. OK. Did you ever make any wedding dresses or anything formal?

Sister Butler: No, just funeral.

Joy: Oh really?

Sister Butler: Yes. [Laughs] Even over here my friend and I make funeral dresses.

Joy: When you say funeral dresses what do you mean?

Sister Butler: Big long gowns.

Joy: For people to wear or?

Sister Butler: Yes for people to wear. And I used to travel with another church sister, she’s from Barbados, and we used to make wedding things. She was the head – just she and I and then you have to do hand work and pressing and everything.

Joy: OK. So the handwork you did, would it have been finishing or sewing beads on or what was the hand work?

Sister Butler: Sew them.

Joy: Sew things onto the garment or?

Sister Butler: Sometimes.

Joy: Do you remember any particular wedding that stood out?

Sister Butler: We used to do lots of weddings. She used to. But I was her helper.

Joy: I’ve got you. I want to ask you a little bit about your memories of Lewisham now. In particular as it relates to being able to buy things like materials and stuff to sew with, machines and all the things that you need as a designer, maker, tailor. What do you remember about the shops in Lewisham? Did you used to buy fabric from there?

Sister Butler: Yes. Because even those two coats I made, that was material.

Joy: Do you remember any of the shops in Lewisham that you would have bought things from?

Sister Butler: Yes. I used to go to Oxford Street sometimes to get the material. You have to do your curtains too. [Laughs]

Joy: So it wasn’t just clothes you did, you did curtains as well?

Sister Butler: Yes.

Joy: Do you remember any of the shops in Lewisham?

Sister Butler: [Laughs] And there was a little one, I forgot the name of it, but they’re still selling cloth. I don’t buy them now because I can’t do the sewing.

Joy: How long ago did you stop sewing?

Sister Butler: About in the eighties.

Joy: And why do you think you stopped sewing?

Sister Butler: Because I am old. Age.

Joy: Oh you mean in the eighties, 1980’s or your age, 80’s?

Sister Butler: No not my age.

Joy: I just wanted to be sure. So in the 1980’s. You were not old then. You were older but not old.

Sister Butler: [Laughs] You still sewing?

Joy: Yes.

Sister Butler:         I bet you are. Really?

Joy: Not nearly as much as I used to. You get older and you get tired.

Sister Butler: Yes, don’t want to do it.

Joy: So when you stopped sewing what did you do? Did you do other work?

Sister Butler: Yes. I did catering.

Joy: Oh yes of course. Tell me a little bit about the catering? What did you do?

Sister Butler: Well I went to college to do that. I got a certificate, started the second one, didn’t finish. [Laughs] I also went to college when I was quite old I would say. But I loved my class. We used to do the same type of work as what I used to do in elementary school. I have got a certificate for the first year. After that I don’t think I did do anything else.

Joy: OK well that’s quite a lot anyway. When you did the catering did you work for a company or you did your work for yourself?

Sister Butler: I did work for a company, that was in Oxford Street, for a little while. I did the school, I was the head cook in the school. That was I think what I changed sewing to.

Joy: To cooking?

Sister Butler:         Yes.

Joy: Do you remember what school you were head cook for?

Sister Butler: That was near East Street, and it’s – I can’t remember the name.

Joy: You don’t have to.

Sister Butler: Yes then I started with – sometimes I forget the name of it. I enjoy school cook very much.

Joy: A nice vibrant environment really isn’t it. So that was your main career at that point?

Sister Butler: Yes. And I did that for some time, about 10 years. Some of the women they were very cantankerous.

Joy: At the school?

Sister Butler: Yes.

Joy: In what way?

Sister Butler: I was the only black girl or woman then. They all was – I don’t know if they were all English but I think they were. They always say little words, I didn’t even know it was concerning me until lately, so it didn’t bother me. [Laughs] But we got on good for a little while. But afterwards they seemed not as I thought they were but yeah.

Joy: Did that affect your working life?

Sister Butler: No.

Joy: You did your job?

Sister Butler: That didn’t affect my working life. It was a troublesome head cook I had in this circumstance. So my letter I got to go to the school was if you’re not happy with it just let us know because she’s real trouble. So that was it. We got on for years and then I think that was it.

Joy: OK we’re going to move on a bit from there then and expand it a little bit and talk about how other things might have affected your life in England. I think one of the things that we’re aware of was your involvement with the church. So can you tell us a little bit about your experience within the church community and how that might have impacted on your life here in England and your work if at all as well? What kind of things you might have done?

Sister Butler: It have a lot of – I think that’s the best thing I’ve ever done. There might be a little flutter here or there, but on the whole it really put me right. And I loved the church. Yes I think it did a lot for me.

Joy: Can you tell us a little bit more about what it did do for you? What was it like? There was obviously the actual going to church but it was more than that, like the community aspect of it. What kind of things would you have done?

Sister Butler: Yeah I loved my Sunday school, learning the words of God and that was my real interest. And you have problems here or there, even if it’s not you yourself, but in the church you find different types of people coming in. You have to be strong to keep to the word because that’s the only thing could help the word of God and that helped me a lot. Sometimes a bit of discouragement but you have to learn to carry on because you can’t give up everything.

Joy: So whilst you were part of the church community did you ever utilise your skills within the church?

Sister Butler: Yes.

Joy: Tell us about that?

Sister Butler: Making sandwiches. [Laughs] They used to love my sandwiches, we did that at school as well. Corned beef sandwiches, always gone. You do cheese and different types of sandwiches and by the time you look you don’t see any left. [Laughs] And I used to like going out to people’s houses and talk about Christianity.

Joy: Yes. Did you ever go on any outings?

Sister Butler: All the time.

Joy: Tell us about some of those?

Sister Butler: We went to Blackpool. Almost every one of the seaside around. That’s what we had to do for holiday breaks. And I loved that, pick up early, gone to seaside.

Joy: Did you ever make clothes for your children for these outings? I’m back with the sewing here.

Sister Butler: From home. [Laughs] I remember making clothes for seaside as well. It was palace elders, when you have your friends going away. I can remember a pair of dresses I make for – who did I make them for, two friends.

Joy: So I’m going to ask you a little bit about the wider community now. So you’ve told us about the church community which was quite special to you. What about the wider community, is there anything that you’d like to tell us about that? And I’m thinking particularly in terms of friends or work associates? Was there anything that stood out?

Sister Butler: Yes we used to go away for weekends different places, that was nice. Used to spend Friday, Saturday, come back late Sunday evening. That was one of my highlights.

Joy: I want to talk a little bit back to your choice to migrate to England, which is where we started. Looking at everything on the whole, thinking about the friends you made, the work you did and generally how your life has been. How do you feel now about your choice to migrate to England?

Sister Butler: I think it’s a good thing because when it comes to my children, if you look over you see so many different towns and degrees and what not, I don’t know if I would be able to afford that home. So in some circumstances it’s quite good, but the children would say – they have two little ones, the last one. I think she’s there, over there. Sometimes we have it as a joke and we say, “Where are all these nice things coming from.” They say, “It’s you.” I feel blushed because I don’t know about that. They always laugh at me and say everything coming from me.

Joy: So you think coming to England benefitted them as well?

Sister Butler: Not as well, mostly.

Joy: Mostly benefitted them, OK yes. Is there anybody else in your family that have followed in your footsteps either in designing and making clothes or catering or cooking?

Sister Butler: Yes, two.

Joy: Tell us about who they are?

Sister Butler: This one, I thinks she’s 21 and she’s taking cooking. Nice curry, nice yellow rice?

Joy: A Thai or Chinese?

Sister Butler: Not Chinese.

Joy: I think I know what you mean but I can’t remember what it’s called.

Sister Butler: I bet you do. [Laughs] Jolluf.

Joy: Oh from the Nigerian, yes.

Sister Butler: Yes. I don’t like it very much but people seem to love it.

Joy: Yes, quite peppery.

Sister Butler: Yes, it is peppery and I hate pepper. [Laughs]

Joy: So I want to ask you when you think about home, where is home?

Sister Butler: In Jamaica.

Joy: It’s still Jamaica?

Sister Butler: Yes.

Joy: Have you been back there a lot since you’ve been here?

Sister Butler:         Yes, a few times, yes.

Joy: So when you go to Jamaica do you know of anybody in Jamaica that designs and makes clothes?

Sister Butler: Yes. One of them came here and she died.

Joy: Died here?

Sister Butler: Yes. Her husband wasn’t very nice. Like mine. So she died, I think he’s somewhere around. They live in the west end.

Do you know of any that are still in Jamaica that design and make out there?

Sister Butler: They come here you know.

Joy: Oh so when they develop themselves they come to England to be?

Sister Butler: I think so yes. Most of them.

Joy: Why do you think that is?

Sister Butler: I think it’s the more money.

Joy: OK yes I understand that. I’ve kind of come to the end now, before I close I just want to give us an opportunity to tell us is there anything else you’d like to share with us, either about Jamaica or your journey to England or the work that you did, your experience. Is there anything that overall stands out that you’d like to share?

Sister Butler: I don’t think there is anything else.

Joy: That’s OK, you’ve told us quite a lot. Sister Butler thank you so much for doing this.

Sister Butler: Finished? [Laughs]

Joy: Yes.

Sister Butler: Thank you.

Joy: It’s been a pleasure and we will share whatever we put together with you so that you have it for your records as well then.

Sister Butler: That’s OK.

Joy: Thank you so much.

Sister Butler:         You’re welcome.

[End of recorded material at 00:47:47]

 

(C16)

If for any reason you wish to withdraw your name or memory, contact us at engage@gold.ac.uk

An oral history collected by Joy Prime as part of her In Living Memory project, A Caribbean Couturier in Lewisham.

In the interview, Leo discusses his first impressions of the UK, his experiences working for London Transport, and the clothes he wore both in Jamaica and Lewisham.

Transcript

Interviewer (Joy Prime): Mr Leo Ford. First of all I want to say thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview. We really do appreciate your participation. Just to reiterate that this project is A Caribbean Couturier in Lewisham and we’re predominantly looking at the women that produced garments within the industry and sometimes within their homes and their communities. But we also felt that we should never leave the men out on what they did because quite often in fashion we forget about them and what the men did was very significant.

So we already know that you’re not a tailor but you use the tailoring service and so we want to talk to you from the perspective of a client and for you to share your experiences. So we will be asking you about your background and your arrival in England to get a general feel of who you are. Then we want to find out a little bit about your experience of having clothes made in England and what that was like for you and what your opinions might be.

So to begin with, just for the record, could you tell us your name, where you come from and your age if you don’t mind please?

Leo: Yeah the name is Leo Ford. I’m from Bridgetown, Barbados. I was born 12^th of September 1932, that would make my next birthday be 90.

Interviewer: Oh we need to celebrate. So Leo could you tell us a little bit about Bridgetown Barbados, where you were born and where you grew up? A little bit about what education you might have had there prior to coming to England? And what you did, thinking about the work you did?

Leo: Bridgetown is a sort of commercial town. Schooling, I was at the Mervin Church School, used to call it the Robuck Boys but now it’s Robuck Secondary. I finished at 15. The usual thing, boys ran about playing cricket and football, swimming. That sort of thing you know, until when I got to 18. Then I really had a job.

Interviewer: So what job did you do at 18?

Leo: Oh one of the first jobs I had was working with the Stevedore border ships. Then after that I went and worked for Jack Deller. Deller Associates but the front man that used to be up front was Jack Deller and his wife, they had a son Nicky Deller. Who married Suzanne [Moore? 00:03:59] the actress. I worked for him for a while, good job, but then I left that job and I went to work for more money, less hours, for a very wealthy man called Bob [May-Gall? 00:04:21] he was French/Canadian who lived in Barbados and had a lot of investments and whatever in Barbados.

Interviewer: Very nice. So Leo could you tell us how old you were when you came to England and how you travelled?

Leo: I was 26 years old. I was on holidays from work. So I had to go back then, hand in my notice and they weren’t pleased about it. But Bob, Mr [May-Gall 00:05:00] I called him. He was a very nice person and he said to me, “I’m going to miss you. But if I were you I’d start going to college over there and come back and work for us.” I promised I would do that after five years but I didn’t. [Laughs] I did go to college really in Kingston, a private college, but that didn’t last long. I had to leave and come – I was living at Kingston Thames at the time. So I had to leave and come to New Cross, to work at New Cross. So that put paid to that.

I was happy in Kingston, nice place. Kingston-On-Thames, very nice.

Interviewer: Yeah Kingston-On-Thames is a very nice part of the country. So Leo what motivated you to come to England?

Leo: I always wanted to come to England. There was something between me and English people, more so than Americans. I’d rather be amongst English people. Because as I said I worked for Jack Deller and the Deller’s were English. Them and their friends, I saw that they treated me very nice and I got to know them, they got to know me and they used to invite me to their house and whatever. So I thought everybody in England would be like that. [Laughs] But I forgot that. The wealthy people and the mid-class and then the very poor people who have to go to work and whatever. So I still enjoyed myself in England, I still love England.

Interviewer: Yes, OK. So when you did arrive in England you already said you had planned to go to college and go back and that didn’t happen. In terms of the work that you did here, what was your expectation, did you come expecting to work as well?

Leo: I had a job and again I had a job a lot on transport. I already had a job. I came by boat for start, a boat called Sorenter. We arrived here at Sussex coast and then the transport sent buses to pick us up. Yeah they took us to the house. That was a Sunday, the Monday we had to go to school to learn the transport way of life. That school is called Chiswick School at Chiswick. That was very good, for two weeks with them studying and whatever. Very, very good, taught us a lot. Very, very good.

Interviewer: OK and then you worked on the London transport after that?

Leo: I worked on the buses as a conductor. In those days there was a lot of conductors and drivers. They called it crew.

Interviewer: Did you enjoy that job?

Leo: Very, very well yes.

Interviewer: What was most enjoyable about it?

Leo: The people. The people that you meet, especially when I came to London, from Surrey to London, especially the people in Lewisham. I found the people in Lewisham are very, very decent lovely people. That is one of the reasons why I decide to stay in Lewisham. I am in Lewisham now from 1960 until now.

Interviewer: Yeah it’s nice. Lewisham Borough Council would like to hear that. OK that’s really nice. We talked about your motivation for coming here. When you did arrive, tell me a little bit more about your first impressions of what you saw?

Leo: Yeah they came to the customs and greet you with a cup of tea and things like that and I find that I can have coffee if I want. Everybody was polite to you and I expected that in any case.

Interviewer: Where was the first place you lived? Do you remember the first place you lived?

Leo: Yeah I lived in Hampton. Hampton is Middlesex and besides Surrey, so Hampton is in Middlesex and then you come down to Hampton Court and turn left and go up a bit and then get into Surrey sort of thing. Or I can go from Hampton Wick, cut through the back from Middlesex to Surrey that way.

Interviewer: Then eventually you moved to Lewisham like you said?

Leo: Then I moved to Kingston-On-Thames because I met a driver. He was a new driver and he didn’t know the way and things like that. He just came with the army, a young fella. I showed him the way sort of thing and helped him. He got to like me, so he invited me to his house. He lived with his mother-in-law and his wife and a kid. He introduced me to his mother-in-law. The idea is that he wanted me to come and live with his mother-in-law, I didn’t know that. [Laughs] So he said to me, “How they treating you where you live? Does she give you a cup of tea regularly and sandwiches?” I said, “No, never offered me a cup of tea.” He said to his mother-in-law, “Would you like Leo to come and live here with us?” She said, “Yes.” And I lived there for over a year with her. [Laughs] And they treated me very well. She said to me, “Leo you have to pay the same money that my son pays, and my daughter pays, you have to pay that same money,” and that was 30 bob a week. [Laughs]

Interviewer: Not bad.

Leo: You get as much food as you want, especially breakfast time. The biggest breakfast you’ve ever seen. From 7.30a.m to about 10.00a.m they’re still doing breakfast.

Interviewer: So from there where you move to from there?

Leo: In 1959 I came up to Lewisham to visit some friends and I came into Lewisham and I found the place very nice. Like I said lovely people. After a while I keep thinking I want to live in Lewisham. So I applied and transferred and came up to Lewisham. I lived in Shore Road, number 30 Shore Road. [Laughs]

Interviewer: Very nice, OK. So Leo we want to shift and start talking a little bit about clothing. So we know that you don’t make, but we know you used a lot of tailors services. So can you tell me a little bit about your experience of having clothes made by a tailor?

Leo: Yes. I had some very good tailors. My first tailor in England was a man called Mr Roff, his shop was just before the Goldsmith’s College. Opposite the Marquis of Granby, facing the Marquis of Granby, on the Lewisham Way. The bus used to go down Lewisham Way, go up and down, they go around now. He was a very good tailor, a very decent man. But I think he saw the business was going to go down, tailoring – you could buy trousers up Carnaby Street for say £10. He make the trousers for £25. This was a lot of money in those days.

So he decided to run a betting shop on the Lewisham Way. That’s why he left, he sold up the business and went and did a betting shop. The other tailors I had was Hepworth on Lewisham High Street, they were very good. John Collins made one suit for me. There was one or two other tailors that I bought things from, got a suit made. But the last good tailor I had was Ken Thurlow at Shop 60 at Catford, he was great. I tell you he was a real good tailor. I had him for a long, long, long time.

Interviewer: Leo why did you choose to have your clothes tailor made as opposed to buying them?

Leo: At the time I had a better physique than I have now. I didn’t have the pouch and all that and clothes used to hang on me good. You understand what I’m saying? I rather at that time a tailor-made suit. I’m a clothes person in any case and I always like a nice suit and nice trousers, or nice jacket made, waistcoat or something like that.

Interviewer: Do you remember what it would have cost to have a suit made? I know you said just a moment ago about trousers and –

Leo: The last suit I had made cost me – it was a pinstripe suit and Ken Thurlow said to me, “You better get in here because this material, the company that make the material,” you know in Scotland or wherever they come from, this particular material he said, “This stripe, there are pinstripes and pinstripes, they look alike but they’re not the same, different pinstripe. But it’ll cost you £800.” This was quite a bit of money at the time. So I said to him, “You show me the material.” He said, “Look this is going to be a nice piece of material.” And he made it for me and I have it all now, still have it.

Interviewer: Oh wow. That’s really nice. [Pause] I lost my trail of thought for a minute. I was thinking about this pinstripe suit, I’ve got a thing about pinstripe suits, if the material is really nice and it looks really good. Can you tell me a little bit more about the actual process from the time you arrive, to order the suit, what that process is like? What do you do? What do they do in terms of measuring and until you collect it?

Leo: Yeah the tailor measure you from head to toe. [Laughs] They were very, very good tailors. In England they have got the best tailors in the world I think. The styles, you know they don’t go for all these styles, they just made a suit for you. Is it a dinner suit or a lunch suit? In Italy they started the styles. So they had an Italian style. So I had to get an Italian style made. [Laughs]

Interviewer: So what would you do, would you go to your tailor here and ask them to make an Italian suit?

Leo: Yeah you go to your tailor, you tell him what you want, he decide, “OK we’ll do that for you.” Then they measure you and you have to go back for fittings.

Interviewer: Yes. Do you remember how many fittings you had to do?

Leo: Twice, two fittings.

Interviewer: Right, then it would be good to go?

Leo: Yes, jacket sometimes. Yeah.

Interviewer: OK. Did you have suits made when you were in Barbados?

Leo: Yes.

Interviewer: So can you tell me a little bit about that experience and then how you compare the two?

Leo: Well at that time they had some very good tailors. But the main tailor in Barbados was a company and we had a lot of different tailors, different sections of the tailor shop. Big shop, and it employed tailors. They also trained young people to become tailors. Well my tailor he came from that department, that store, that tailor shop. He made two suits for me before I left Barbados. I bought them here with me. I haven’t got them anymore but they were very good. [Laughs] You know Barbados, at that time the best place to get materials to make suits was the Costa company. The best material they used to sell, but very expensive. So you save up your money and you buy your suit you know, buy what you want.

Interviewer: So when you bought your suit to England and then you had a tailored suit made in England, how does that compare?

So how did you compare the service that you got first of all? Then how did you compare the suit?

Leo: Similar. Tailors were very, very good.

Interviewer: Similar standard?

Leo: Yes same thing, two fittings for a suit, different jacket you know. Not with trousers but the jacket, put it on and – then very, very good tailors in Barbados.

Interviewer: OK. So Leo do you have any real standout memories that you hold dear with regard to having something made, something that was made? Or just generally with your experience, that transition from Barbados to England?

Leo: Well a lot of memories but nothing significant you know what I mean.

Interviewer: So we’ve talked a little bit about Lewisham because the tailors that you used were in the borough. But what I want to ask you is how do you think Lewisham has changed because lots of the tailors that you would have mentioned they’re not there anymore are they?

Leo: No, they’re gone. Sadly that’s gone.

Interviewer:Are there any left?

Leo: No.

Interviewer: So they’ve all gone?

Leo: They’ve all gone. That’s a sad thing yeah.

Interviewer: Yes it is, because now the new generation are not learning. That is a shame, yes. So we’re just going to move on a little bit more now Leo and just talk a little bit about family, friends and work and how that’s impacted your life in England.

Leo: Yes, I see where you’re coming from yeah. Well I work at the transport, it’s like a family. You don’t have to go home because we have a restaurant, we have the games room and you can go and play games, cards, shove penny, table tennis. They have three snooker tables and the sports room. So then in the summer time we play cricket and the transport had a section, have runners, swimmers and people learned to row boats and all. The transport was very, very – remember it wasn’t transport like now, it was the London Transport Executive, that was the main company in those days.

Interviewer: So very different from the London transport that we see now?

Leo: Different now. You see since Margaret Thatcher came into power – she got this franchise situation where the different companies – got different companies.

Interviewer: Yes because they’re different companies that own different aspects.

Leo: The government give them to run for X amount of time and X amount of money they give them to get on with it. Because the government want – you see there is a difference between a Conservative government and a Labour government. Labour government is socialist sections and the other one is an associations and two different things all together. So Mrs Thatcher she was the associated situation and she bought in these franchisee so people could run different, give us the money, you get on with it, they don’t want to know. The government don’t want to know. But they give different companies money to get on with running different sections of the buses and trains and underground and whatever, you know what I mean?

Interviewer: Yes. So it changed a lot. It sounded to me like they really built a family?

Leo: Yes, yeah.

Interviewer: So how was that, how did you feel about that leaving your home and what was familiar to you in Barbados and coming into that environment?

Leo: I was very, very happy. I was never unhappy in England. Especially Lewisham. I got so many friends. Sadly some departed but I still have a lot of friends that come and take me out as you know. Come to my house, come take me out, ring me, “Leo can you go with me to somewhere, have a drink or whatever.” Sam, my friend Sam, he likes karaoke, he takes me with him sometimes.

Interviewer: So I’m going to ask you another little question about the whole clothing and tailoring and you know we’ve already said, you told us how they’ve all gone now and they’re not in Lewisham anymore. Do you think that any sort of investment or anything socially or politically would have had an impact on that? On them being able to stay? Why do you think they all closed?

Leo: Clothing for women and men, somebody got to put up the money. All right let’s talk about the women’s section, I had a friend in Italy, he was very wealthy and he used to put up the money to make all these gowns and whatever, beautiful gowns. He died now and that’s fallen apart. I can’t remember his name, his name slips me. But the men’s section, there is no one putting up any money to make clothes on a wide market for me. Only places like Moss Bros, those still do a little bit I think. But apart from that there is no tailors.

Interviewer: Yes that’s a shame isn’t it. [Pause] OK so just a couple more questions Leo. When you think back to Barbados do you know of any tailors that still exist in Barbados?

Leo: No I don’t know any.

Interviewer: So we don’t know whether they’ve –

Leo: They would be like 100 and something. [Laughs] I’m 90.

Interviewer: Yes that was a while ago, that’s absolutely fine. So Leo looking back, I think I know the answer to this, but looking back. First of all when you think of home what comes to your mind?

Leo: Lewisham.

Interviewer: That’s nice, you like Lewisham. When you look back, I think I know the answer but I’m going to ask you anyway. when you look back to Barbados and that journey from Barbados to England and the life you have had here, do you think you made the right choice?

Leo: I don’t know the answer to that really. I don’t know? I really don’t know the answer to that? I look back at my cousins, they have children and I don’t know them. Well most of them I don’t know. A lot of my cousins still living. No, I don’t know? All my brothers and sisters came abroad, America and UK. But I keep in touch with them and if I go to Barbados or New York I go and live with them. The family have a house down there, the whole family so we could go down and have a key to get in and rest up for a couple of weeks if we want to.

I still think of Lewisham as my home. Barbados was my home once, I was born there. But I settled down in England. I thought to myself, “I’m going to settle here.” And that’s it.

Interviewer: Do you think that migration to England has been beneficial for say the younger generations? The generations after you, even in your family or in your circle?

Leo: Yes. That’s a good question. You see in Barbados and Caribbean as a whole, they haven’t got alto of industries. The majority of industries would be in, Jamaica had industry and I think that’s mainly in Canada now. Trinidad got the oil industry and I think they do [unintelligible 00:32:01] too. Ghana they have a few industries too. They still do cane and sugar cane, Trinidad do sugar cane, Jamaica do sugar cane. Barbados hardly do sugar cane but they haven’t got the industries, that’s what they want now there. Industries keep the young people in schools and we have some very good schools in Barbados. We have the university and all that. But for them to earn a living they have to go abroad and that’s the thing that’s killing the Caribbean. Most of the Caribbean people when they finish university or college or whatever, they want to work. And they want to work now and they have to go abroad but there is no industries.

Interviewer: So you think in England they have much better opportunities?

Leo:  Yes. Well they have a lot of opportunities in this country. The Canadians employ quite a few of them. But if you go to America and you get qualified over there, go to the college you could earn some big money over there. But you have to be young. You can’t say when you get to 60 you’re going over there to earn big money because you have to go to college. It depends on what type of education you have.

If you say that you have a masters and something like that and you specialise in mathematics or whatever that’s different. But because quite a few people have masters and PhD and things like that, get jobs all over the world. Germany, China, I have a cousin who was working in China recently but he’s back here now. He’s working in Canary Wharf.

Interviewer: Leo thank you for that. It’s been really insightful. Is there any last thing that you would want to share with us? About anything that we’ve talked about?

Leo: About the world?

Interviewer: Yes.

Leo: Oh dear. Oh well I don’t know what to say about the world at the moment. It’s various aspects of life in the world you know. But as far as I’m concerned, well the world is going pretty good. Pretty good. I’m very happy to be alive to see all the new inventions that come in. I’m very happy to see all these things and very happy to learn about some of them too. So I think that the world is being very good, yeah.

Interviewer: Thank you. Leo thank you very much, I’ve really appreciated this and we will definitely share with you anything, any of the outputs that come from this process, thank you.

Leo: Sure

[End of recorded material at 00:35:33]

 

(C15)

If for any reason you wish to withdraw your name or memory, contact us at engage@gold.ac.uk

An oral history collected by Joy Prime as part of her In Living Memory project, A Caribbean Couturier in Lewisham.

In the interview, Sylvia discusses how she first learned to sew, her journey from Trinidad to the UK, and her experiences producing made-to-measure garments in Lewisham.

Transcript

Interviewer (Joy Prime): So Mum, thank you so much for doing this interview. Just to reiterate it’s part of the In Living Memory series and our project is called A Caribbean Couturier in Lewisham. The whole idea of this project is that we are celebrating the Caribbean women that came to London and moved to the borough of Lewisham. Some of them worked for factories, some worked for individuals but all of them contributed very much to the community, to the culture, to the fashion industry. And that’s why we’re here today with you, so thank you so much for agreeing to participate in this project and in the interview.

So first of all for the record, can you start by telling us your name?

Sylvia: My name is Sylvia Prime-Holder.

Interviewer: If you don’t mind could you tell us your age and where you were born?

Sylvia: My age is 84. 85 in a couple of months’ time. I was born in Trinidad, Jerningham Junction in the county of Caroni and that is in Trinidad and Tobago.

Interviewer: Wonderful, thank you. That’s obviously where you grew up?

Sylvia: Yes I grew up in Jerningham Junction, it’s a small town. Where we were living in Jerningham Junction, it’s a very small house but it was a very large family. My family was very large, I was the second of nine children. But we were so happy. The surrounding was small but my parents tried to make the comfort level as much for us.

I remember my mum – it was just a one bedroom. Can you imagine? One bedroom with nine children. We had no bed there so our bed was on the floor. But we didn’t mind. And I don’t think we stayed there very long because my father was a very hard-working man and he was a very ambitious man. What happened, he bought a piece of land from a man by the name of Mr Boudran, he had a very large shop. There was my father, he built a two-bedroom house and we had so much space, a big yard and garden. So it was so much better. We had a mango tree, guava trees, cherries, coconut trees. Oh it was lovely, a lovely place yes.

Interviewer: So what about education? What school did you go to? Tell us a bit about that?

Sylvia: Yes I went to school. It was called Canupia Government School. This is about I would say roughly four kilometres from where we live in Jerningham Junction. We would walk that every day to get to school. It was a lovely school. I think now they have improved on the school there to make the school look – improved on the building. But where the school was, we had a very big playground. The lower class I think was from primary to the upper one was from primary to first standard, second standard and from third standard upwards was on the higher level of the school.

Interviewer: Can you tell us a little bit about what you learnt at the school? The different classes that you were in? What was your favourite?

Sylvia: I learned quite a lot because I was a very bright girl at school. I remember I was in the second standard and my teacher thought I was too bright for the second standard, so my name was on the roll in the third standard and every morning when I arrive in the second standard in my class she would send me upstairs just to let the teacher know I was present. Then we took it from there and when I got to the third standard I kind of topped the class. Every term we used to have what you call term tests. Whenever I had my test result I would top the class. As a result of that I got to skip from third to fifth standard.

Interviewer: That’s amazing. So tell me a little bit more about beyond there. How did you come to start learning about clothing and making? What did you learn in school, in Trinidad?

Sylvia: Yes well in the fifth standard. This is where the pupils were beginning to work real hard. We had a teacher by the name of Miss Cotton and she was a sewing class teacher. This is where I began to learn to do all the stitches, cross stitch, all the stitches you can think of because she had a sewing machine there. I became very interested in that. Another class they had called domestic science. There it was we learned to do quite a lot of things in domestic science.

Interviewer: What sort of things did you do in domestic science?

Sylvia: Cooking. They taught us how to cook the various meals you know. We had to do it properly because the teachers would benefit from the meal when it’s finished. And baking. Although I learned some of these things at home, because being a large family my mum she was a very good cook, and being the eldest girl I had to learn how to do the cooking.

Interviewer: Yes, OK. So tell me a little bit more about beyond school, where did you actually learn your skills that actually allowed you to start sewing garments for other people? Tell us where that stemmed from a little bit and your journey?

Sylvia: Yes well after I reached the fifth standard and then we started – we had to do some projects, some sort of sewing. Some making a garment of our choice and I chose to make little satin shoes. I used my imagination and I used my skill. Nobody ever showed me how to do it but I saw how baby shoes are made and I got the piece of satin material and I made a lovely baby satin shoes. Do you know that was kept in the school cabinet under lock and key. So any visitors, anyone coming into the school would have a look and see what is in the cabinet and your name is against whatever you made you know. I used to feel so proud of my little satin shoes and say, “That’s my little satin shoes I made.”

Interviewer: So tell us a little bit about at home now. Still talking about the skills that you developed, what did you do at home, who else sewed in your home? What kind of things did you do at home?

Sylvia: Yes after I left school my dad, he wanted to send me to high school and I thought, “I don’t want to go to high school I want to learn to do sewing.” Because that was all in my head now, I was focusing, and I love doing things with my hands. At home I would get material because we always had dogs and cats in our home, dog for the garden, the property. I watch how a dog is made and I would get a piece of material and cut them out in the shape of a dog. I would stitch it with my hands and of course I would stuff it and put it on display.

Also when my dad saw I was so determined I did not want to go to high school, he thought and sent me to learn to do sewing. I travelled about from one train to the next to get to this place which is called Tunapuna which was a long journey from home. There is where I learned and began to really work hard. This lady, she was a very good seamstress. We called them seamstress in those days. She taught me how to measure and cut. I only took six months in that course. Six months to learn to do everything and with that you have to learn to do every piece of garment. Even men clothing, trousers, underwear, shirt, dress shirts, sports shirts, I could do that, measure and cut. No pattern. And so therefore I used to sew for the whole family because my mum, she used to sew for the whole family. But of course, when she saw the skill I had and started to sew for the family, well she just gave up and let me do everything. So I used to sew for my dad, my six brothers, sew their trousers, their underwear. Even for my two sisters, I used to sew their dresses and every dress they had matching hats. I used to make the hats.

It was amazing my sister was talking about it not so long ago on the phone to me, she says she always remember every dress, especially for going out purpose, there was a hat to match. We used to buy the buckram, you shape and measure your head and shape, cover it and decorate it.

Interviewer: What sort of decorations did you put on the hats?

Sylvia: Well if there is for instance whatever colour dress, especially for going out purpose, whatever colour dress. I would take some of those same material from the dress and cover the buckram. Sometimes I would buy the little rose and put on the side to make it look lovely. Sometimes I would make the roses myself because especially with satin material, I knew how to fold the material, the roses and everything and even put a rose on the side of the dress. So they were all matching.

Interviewer: What about bags? Did you make any bags as well or? Handbags?

Sylvia: Oh yes we had this thing they called tushon. I would get the tushon, clean it up and line it, make bags you know for them. Also I don’t know if you know this. It’s something like a banana tree and we would get the trunk of the tree and pull out some of the things that form the trunk. What I would do is take them out.

Interviewer: Do you mean like the bark?

Sylvia: Yes the bark and washed it and stripped it, put them to dry and when it’s dry what I would do is plait them. Then form little bags you know. Kept going round and round in circles until it formed a little bag. Yeah it was amazing. They would get their – I’ve forgotten the name of this. But they had them in different colours and I would make flowers with them, sew them and make flowers on the bag, on the front of the bag.

Interviewer: I just want to understand the toshon, is that like the stuff that builders use?

Sylvia: Sorry?

Interviewer:  The toshon that you said you used to use.

Sylvia: It’s like – I don’t know if you know korily?

Interviewer: Oh yes. The bush?

Sylvia: Yes, when it’s dry – I have some in here you know. [Laughs] I was doing some cleaning and I took them out. I was doing some cleaning and I was like, “Oh that’s toshon.” We would take those and make bags with it. Make little purses as well with a zip.

Interviewer: OK so just one other thing about the work that you did. So when you did your six months training with the lady, what impact did that have on your career? What did you do once you’d finished? Did you have other clients other than the family? Just tell us a little bit more about that?

Sylvia: Yes after I did my six months course I started sewing and I started making dresses for myself. I’m a person I love dressing up. People were seeing me walking down the street in this lovely dress, “Oh who made that dress.” And I would say. There were people who had other seamstress in the area and they would take their material from that seamstress and bring it to me. So I could make their dresses.

Interviewer: Did you have any particular client that would be maybe like your favourite or a standout? Or one that was particularly special? Or did you make anything that was particularly special?

Sylvia: Yes I made quite a lot of things that stand out today. I just feel so proud in doing these things. I remember now what my dad – he used to buy these hundred-pound bag of flour. Now these bags of flour has writing on it. What my job was being the eldest girl, I had to wash those bags. Get all those markings off the bag because those bags were meant for making underwear for my dad and my brothers, to make sheets and pillowcases. We’d get four of those bags, join them together and get pattern. We had what you call carbon copy and we would get the different patterns and put carbon copy onto the material. When you see that finished work of that, that bag used to be so white, no marking on it at all. And even I have pillowcase that I bought from Trinidad that I’ve made with drawn thread. With those straw bags it was very easy to pull the thread out and it’s some of them used to make a pyramid, you start from one and then two and three and four, until you get about how many on the four corners of that pillowcase. I cherished that.

Interviewer: So mum I want to talk to you a little bit about coming to England now. Can you tell us how old you were when you came and what was your motivation to come to England?

Sylvia: Yes when I came to England I was 24 years old. My late husband he came here first, he had the desire to come to England. Because being a pastor his mother thought he was running away from the ministry in Trinidad, which he pastored five churches there. But he assured he was not running away from the ministry. So he said within a year he’s going to send for us, which he did. That was a bit of excitement. And four children age from 4 to 10 months. [Laughs] Yes, that was something.

Interviewer: How did you travel? What was your mode of transport?

Sylvia: We travelled by the boat because my late husband wanted us to travel by plane but I said, “No I don’t want to travel by plane.” I just wanted to go by the ship, travel on the ship, because I want experience. Boy did I tell you I got experience. [Laughs]

Interviewer: Tell us a bit about the boat trip then?

Sylvia: Yes, so we travelled by ship.

Interviewer: So tell us a little bit about that experience on the boat coming over?

Sylvia: Yes coming over, when we left Trinidad and sailed. We should have only taken about two weeks to get from Trinidad to the UK and it took us about three to four weeks because of a terrible storm we had at sea. But when we left Trinidad it was fine, the waters was fine. Then of course sailing onto Barbados the water because a bit choppy. Everybody was running to the toilet and being sick and things like that. So anyhow we got into the cabin, myself and the four children and settled them in. They were a bit sick. Anyhow when we got to Barbados quite a lot of people came on the ship and that’s it.

Then yeah, the ship was quite a lot of people from Barbados and they were so noisy some of them. [Laughs] But yeah of course when we got there it was amazing. I thought maybe life is just in the cabin only. I never thought that we could go upstairs in the lodge and everything. I never thought of that at all, I thought, “Well I’m confined to this cabin.” Until one day one of my sons, the oldest boy, he was only about three going on four and he wanted to go to the bathroom. So I took him and I stood outside. But of course when I stood outside the bathroom I could hear piano playing. I could hear piano and I recognised the song that was on the piano. I was a very shy person and I sort of crept up and I went up the stairs and I saw so many people and I thought, “No I’m not going up there.” But I thought, “Well if anything could get me out of this cabin, 24/7 night and day watching the walls and what have you.” It took the risk to get out there. I took the courage and I took – the two younger ones they were asleep so I left them in the cabin and I took the elder ones and we went up and I saw so many people, some were playing dominoes, some were playing cards, some were around the bars. There was this man just playing away on the piano. He said, “Can you play the piano?” I said, “Yes I can.”

So he gave me this ancient and modern book and I started playing and I thought, “Well this song is not so exciting.” So I went back downstairs to the cabin and then after a while I made sure the children was fed and everything and I had bought quite a lot of my gospel song book with me and I took them up and I went upstairs again and there again the piano was there vacant and I went to the piano and I began to play songs. Quite a lot of the people who were playing the dominoes and the cards and some around the bars, well I’m telling you something, we had church. Everybody forgot what they were doing and there was a sing song. There was this lady, they were from Scotland, an older lady and a younger one, they were missionaries from Scotland, came up to me and said, “Can you play Blessed Assurance?” I said, “Yes I can.” I turned the page and they sang it as a duet and it was amazing, an amazing experience. From that day, every day, I would leave the cabin and go upstairs and play on the piano.

Interviewer: Can you tell me of some of the other places that you visited as part of that journey then? Your journey over to England? Some of the other ports, can you remember some of the other ports that you stopped in other than Barbados?

Sylvia:  Yes after Barbados we stopped at Lacious Before Lacious  we stopped at a port that is like a Spanish port you know and quite a lot of people came on the ship and was selling different things. I think I bought a doll for Jenny. But I was not able to get out because of the four children, I couldn’t manage it all. So after we left that port we went on to Lacious I think and then before we got to Portugal we had to pass the bay of Biscay and there is where we hit rock bottom. There was a storm and we were given life jackets for the four children and for myself. I looked at my four children and said, “I can’t put these things on my four children.” And Joy was a baby, I couldn’t put them on you know. I just didn’t bother to put them on. That night, I’m telling you now the storm, it was so terrible. The captain head the ship towards New York in order to escape the storm. We got the tail end of the storm which almost take us down to the bottom. Because in the morning the steward came knocking at the door and said, “The ship is filled with water.” And I knew something was happening because while the ship was sailing, all of a sudden it went on the side.

Interviewer: Wow, scary.

Sylvia: This is when it is taking in water. Then it came up and it shook. But I was very clever. I put every one of my children on the bunk bed. Rather than putting them – they had four bunk beds, rather than putting one at the top and one at the bottom, no. Everyone because they were small, two up, two down and I stayed in the middle. When the storm began and the ship began to rock and things like that, the suitcases were playing see-saw, they were from one end of the bed to another. Each time the ship went on the side the suitcases just went over on the other side. And it shook, it got stable and it shook. When it went over on the other side the suitcase went. It was just going up and down and this time the ship was filled with water and I didn’t even know until the next morning. No one could have gone for dinner or breakfast that next morning because the ship was filled with water. We almost went down to the bottom. We were told there was hurricane planes circling around us because they knew the ship was in danger and just to rescue us. That’s why we were given the life jacket. They would have let go of all the women with their children first, off.

But I thought we probably would not have survived because going through a storm where the ship is especially the where the ship is, Biscay, very, very terrible place for ship to go through especially in stormy weather. I thought and I prayed. I sat on the side and I was holding both ends of the bunk beds so my children wouldn’t fall off the bed. When I sat there and I prayed and I said, “Lord I remember when you’re in the ship with the disciples on the sea and there was a great storm and they came, you were asleep and the disciples came and said, ‘Master, Master, can you wake up, unless we perish.’ And Jesus got up and said, “We of little faith.” He said to the storm, “Peace Mister.” And there was a calm. I said, “Lord you are the same God, you have not changed.” I made a vow right there and then, I said, “Lord if you would only allow me to get to England, I would serve you for the rest of my life.” And I did.

But going through that storm was really, really terrible indeed. Can you imagine being a ship and it filled with water and you know it’s going down. Well I tell you something, God just rose it up. Do you know it wasn’t long after another ship was going through that same bit of Biscay and on that ship it had about 85 children on board, plus the adult men and women and that ship went down to the bottom with all of them.

Interviewer: So we’re very lucky to have arrived in England?

Sylvia: Yes. It took us longer.

Interviewer: So Mum, after going through all of that and you final saw England in view and you were nearly there. How were you all feeling?

Sylvia: Well my first impression, we docked at Liverpool. When we were heading towards Liverpool and somebody said, “Oh there is Wales in the distance.” And you see this black rock there, I’m saying, “Oh if that is Wales I must tell what England is like.” I was so disappointed. Very disappointed indeed because when we got to dock at Liverpool, we got a train from Liverpool to Euston station. Can you imagine all my train with this luggage and Joy was in my hand, she was in my hand, she was a baby. All the other ones with little suitcases. There was the guard who said, “Hurry up, hurry up.” I said, “Hurry up.” [Laughs] We got them on the train and the thing about it, everyone was saying to me, “Have you got enough warm clothes for the children because it’s very cold up there.” I said, “Oh my god this might be an ice box we’re going into.” So what I did I put on two of everything. Two on the way. Two pants, two vests, plus their shirt and then their coat. Well I tell you Dale, he was only 18 months and he wouldn’t have all of this and he was just screaming his head off, he couldn’t talk but you know, “Get this off me.”

Everybody was saying, “Sshhhh.” I thought, “Oh my god you can’t even cry in this place.” Anyhow we started our journey and I kept looking out because my late husband say, “When you arrive we’ll get a nice flat for you.” And now in Trinidad, we call our place, it’s like bungalows, we call them flats. Painted in all different pretty colours. Travelling and I keep looking and I couldn’t see – I could see these buildings with chimney, all this smoke coming out. I say, “I remember seeing these things on magazines.” So I knew these things exist. I thought all these chimneys, I kept thinking, “I can’t see any pretty flats.” And it was so dark and gloomy and from then my heart began to sink.

Interviewer: Oh dear, yes so that was a little bit of a disappointment for you?

Sylvia: Very disappointment indeed and of course when we got to where we were going to this place and this place is still there today, Foxbury Road. My late husband said, we went up a flight of stairs, I’ve never climbed so many stairs in all my life. [Laughs] When we did climb the stairs and you have to go up a bit more, where the stairs was leading us to? The attic. Well can you imagine how I felt? Yes, leave my lovely home, my nice highly polished furniture and floors and everything. Sold quite a lot of furniture in order to raise the money to get to this place and this is what we come to, an attic. It was very, very cold. Very cold indeed. I was so disappointed and to make it worse, my late husband he did not even have a job. Every time he went out to job I would just sit there and I would cry and say, “I’d like to go back home.” But I wouldn’t cry for my children to see me. They were so busy looking through the window because they see the train passing by and it was excitement for them because they’d never seen any train before. They always sit by the window and watch the train go by. There was Brockley station there and I would just sob my eyes out and say, “I want to go back home.” But I couldn’t cry and let them see that I was crying.

I was very, very disappointed and that yeah. I said, “Right I’m only coming here for five years and after five years I’m back.” [Laughs]

Interviewer: In those five years what were you hoping to do?

Sylvia: Well because of the skill I had, what my late husband did, he bought a sewing machine for me. This is when I used to get the papers and there would be advertisement for machinists, and this is where I fit in. I felt a bit better because of course I was doing something. I was doing something.

Interviewer: Who were you sewing for at that point?

Sylvia: It was a machinist place in a place called Shadwell. The garments were bought home so I could sew and then they would pick them up and take them back.

Interviewer:  They’d collect them back from you?

Sylvia: Yes they would collect them back.

Interviewer: Did you sew for any other companies or just that one?

Sylvia: There was a company, because he wasn’t paying me a lot of money and there was a company in – not Forest Hill. I went to a company where they were sewing children’s clothes and I used to love making children’s clothes. Crystal Palace. But the first company I went to, I saw it advertised on the paper. So I said, “Have you got any vacancy?”, “Yes come along.” I leave my children indoors and say, “Don’t open the door, you stay there, Mummy just going out to Crystal Palace.” So I jumped on the train and I went to Crystal Palace. When I got there to the company, they took one step back and said, “Oh sorry.” I said, “I’ve just spoken to you and you said the job was vacant and I can come, well here I am.” “Oh it’s not vacant anymore.” But I knew exactly it’s because when they see me they say, “No, what do you want here.” [Laughs] Yeah I was disappointed I didn’t get the job but there was another one going then and I got that one.

That one, lovely dresses I used to make. And of course, I would ask them for scraps of material and they would give me and I’d make some lovely dresses for my two daughters, Virginia and Joy. Lovely dresses. They used to be walking down the street. People would look and say, “They’re beautiful.” The way how they were dressed, the frills and everything, it was lovely.

Interviewer: Can you remember any of the brands that you made dresses for?

Sylvia: es I sewed for Windsmoor.  Have you ever heard of Windsmoor? I sewed for Windsmoor. Not the full garment but some of them do piece work. So I sewed for Windsmoor.

Interviewer: Any others that come to mind?

Sylvia: Most of them came from Shadwell, yes.

Interviewer: OK so I want to talk a little bit more about your work experience now. So were there any opportunities, having started working for these factories from home, were there any opportunities for you to advance or were there any opportunities to do any additional training?

Sylvia: Yes. Because I know I was pretty good in my sewing so I went to the Lewisham College. I thought I would like to sort of improve, get some more qualifications. When I went and the teacher, I said to her what I’d like to do, I’d like to improve on my skills you know. Take advanced course in the sewing. She looked at me and she said, “Sorry why you want to do this course?” and I told her. She never allowed me to get on in the school, she never allowed me. But little did she know, I knew quite a lot. So in the end I did a different course, so I didn’t let her put me off. I took office English and typing instead.

Interviewer: Did you think you would ever use those skills?

Sylvia: Yes I did, the office and typing that came in handy after a while.

Interviewer: OK so we’ll talk a little bit more about that later then. I want to talk a little bit about your experiences in the Lewisham borough and what that was like. so talking about the shops that were there, what shops you remember, were there any shops in Lewisham that you remember sewing for? Also where you would have bought materials other than through the factories?

Sylvia: Yes I used to buy a lot of material from Rolls and Rems in Lewisham and also from Maggie in a place called back market. I think she’s still on the Broadway, not too far from the clocktower. She still sells material and I still go down there and buy material from her now and again. But I’ve not been in years. But she used to sell some lovely material.

Interviewer: What about the other shops, like do you remember in Lewisham they had lots of clothes shops like C&A, Army and Navy? Do you remember those?

Sylvia: Yes. I remember we sewed some garments for C&A and I remember one day I went down to Peckham and I went in to C&A and I look at some of these garments, “We make some of those.” So I began to look at them and look at the label because each garment that was made you have to write your initial at the back. When I saw the price that they were selling these garments for, lovely dresses, and I was only paid three shilling. I say, “I’m not going to do any more.” So I said to the guy, “Excuse me but please do not bring back any more of your work for me.” Because I think this was a real slave thing. [Laughs] Three shillings to make a garment and in the shop they’re selling for so much pounds, yeah so I stopped sewing for them.

Interviewer: I want to ask you a little bit more about where you were sewing. Because at this time you were still in Foxbury Road and you were in an attic room. How was that? What was your setup like there?

Sylvia: Yes well what happened, there was this guy from – he was living on the ground floor. That ground floor was one room and it was vacant. So I said to my late husband, “Can we move down to the ground floor because it would be much better because the attic is very, very cold for the children.” I used to feel so sorry, I said, “This is what I bought my children into.” Anyhow he said, “Well the landlady said we have to pay a bit more.” I said, “Well it would be better.” And of course it was empty, so there was no bed, no chairs, no cooker, nothing at all. So in Brockley there was a second hand shop. I went across and I saw there was this sofa-bed. It’s quite good, you can sit on it during the day and at night you can open it up like a bed. I said, “Yes I’ll have it.” So I bought that and that was for the children. There was another one past Shadlers Road and he was selling beds. So I went out and bought a bed. But of course we didn’t have any cooker. So what I used to cook on, because our only means of heating the room was paraffin heater. I used to cook on the paraffin heater. We would put the kettle on the paraffin heater to boil to make our tea and everything, boil water so that we can tidy the children and everything and get the pan and cook on it.

So one day there was this English lady, she was living a couple of doors away from us in Foxbury Road and I was telling her about it. I was just talking to her and I said, “We only just came over here and of course I haven’t got any cooker.” She said, “I’ll take you down to the Marquis and to Ted Fullers.” I didn’t know where this place is. She said, “I’ll take you down there.” And in fact she took me down there, an electrical place there and there it was, they were selling electric cookers and things. She said, “You can hire it, they will come and install it for you and all you have to do,” in those days you punch the meter, you punch the money, put 10 pence into the meter. I put 20 pence and I used to cook with that. You get the lights and also do the sewing. I said, “Well thank God for that lady.” Because that took me down so I was able to get a cooker to cook. Do you know the landlady, she had a big, massive kitchen. She never said, “Oh well you can use this kitchen until you get yourself organised.” No she never do that.

Interviewer: Oh dear.

Sylvia: So I had to cook on my paraffin heater.

Interviewer: Until you got your cooker.

Sylvia: Yes until I got my heater.

Interviewer: So that was Foxbury Road. Where did you go from there? Tell us some of the other places that you lived?

Sylvia: Yes well what happened, baby number five came along. So the nursery were saying, “Look at her, she’s only 25 and five children.” [Laughs] There was not a lot of room and space to put everybody in the house. So this is what I think when we got involved in the church and they were praying for us. One of the landlady she had two houses and one at 46 and one at 56 Endwell Road. She said, “Well there is a room there at 56 Endwell Road, they can have that one.” Which we did. But of course, we had to pay a little more money and sacrifice and things like that in order to – but the thing about it, I had to share toilet, bathroom, kitchen. The kitchen was so small and it had about seven people in that building and we had to share. I used to say, “I’m not accustomed to sharing kitchen with other people doing my cooking.”

In those years they had a thruppenny bit you know, the amount of thruppenny’s I punched in those outside phone to see if I can get a place for the children. All I could hear, “Sorry, no blacks, no Irish, no children, no dogs.” Everyone. Every place you went to. “Sorry, no blacks, no Irish, no children, no dogs.” So we had no choice but to live there at Endwell Road.

But what happened, we spent about five years and eight months there before – within that five years and eight months I began to get onto the council which I was told so I could get a better place and God helped us and we got a better place at Forest Hill.

Interviewer: So Mum we’re going to move onto you had moved onto Forest Hill by now and then beyond there to Lewisham, Lewisham Road. During that time you started to do more made to measure clothing for other people. Family, friends and other people as opposed to doing it for the factories. So I want you to tell us a little bit about that, the kinds of things you made, who you made them for?

Sylvia:  Yes. Well I began to get on a wider scale. Wedding dresses, because we had more space. We moved from Forest Hill to Lewisham, which we had a four bedroom. Of course big kitchenette so we had more spaces there you know. Of course I made dresses, my first wedding dress I made was for my eldest daughter. [Laughs] The second one was for a young lady who used to work at St Thomas’ Hospital. She was a secretary. She was an English girl. Jenny was showing them and she looked at Jenny and said, “Do you think your mum would be able to make my wedding dress?”, she said, “Yes course if you ask her.” And she did ask me and I made her wedding dress.

Do you know she still keep in touch with me? Every year without fail Christmas she would send me a Christmas card and she’ll always remind me of that wedding dress and she’s still got that wedding dress.

Interviewer: Oh nice.

Sylvia: Yeah. Even the day when she got married, what happened her friend came to her wedding. Do you know right then, everybody got to know that I made the wedding dress and bridesmaid dresses. This girl she came and after the reception she said to me, “Can you make my wedding dress.” So I got another right there and then on that same day. I got a job to do her wedding dress. So I had that wedding dress to do in the month of May and then another one in June. So can you imagine? I’d love it, I loved doing it. I loved doing those dresses. The more I sew and the more ideas come to me and different things you know. I never advertised, my work advertised itself when people saw the dresses. Even dresses that I’m wearing and things like that. They get to know that I’m a dressmaker. In Trinidad we call them seamstress. Here we call them dressmaker. Of course I got quite a lot of jobs from work as well.

Interviewer: Tell me a little bit about that work because by now you had taken a full time job? Tell me who that was for and why were you doing that alongside doing your dressmaking and designing?

Sylvia: , during that time I used to do childminding. In fact I looked after 17 children, not at once. [Laughs] In total. I used to feel so confined. Looking after these children and my seven children. Then I had came along, your dress had to be made and I thought, “Well I think I have to take my friend advice.” She said to me, “Why don’t you go to the hospital and do some work there, you can do night job.” I didn’t really fancy doing night job, I wanted to do a day job. Of course I went there, work at Lewisham. Not Lewisham, well it connects to Lewisham Hospital, but Hither Green Hospital is where I was stationed.

Whilst I was there I was still sewing wedding dresses and things like that. But I managed well because I had a late husband who was very helpful and he would do the cooking, things like that whilst I got on with my sewing and work you know. So yes even I did some cake decorating as well. I did my eldest daughter, I made her – well a good friend came and made the cake and baked it, I decorated. Yes and it was beautiful, a fountain, beautiful. Quite a lot of things I did even though I’m doing the sewing, I’d manage well.

Interviewer: So you’d work in the day and then come home and sew in the evening?

Sylvia: Yes.

Interviewer: So how long were you at Hither Green Hospital?

Sylvia: I stayed there for over four years. But I just wanted to do something else because lifting those patients –

Interviewer: Was a bit much?

Sylvia: It was a bit much and I didn’t want to remain with a bad back. So during the time working at Hither Green Hospital I took a computer course, it was very expensive and that time computer was just coming. It was a friend of ours, she who advised me to do the computer course and I went up to Loxley College in Oxford Street and when I got my diploma I handed in my notice at Hither Green Hospital. The superintendent said, “Why do you want to leave, we cannot afford to lose a good nurse like you.” He said, “Anyhow whenever you want a job it’s right there, you can come back.” But I have never been back you know.

From there I went on to work for The Welcome Foundation. I worked for them for over 17 years until I retired.

Interviewer: You still kept sewing?

Sylvia: I still kept sewing because even the last dress I made was from a young lady, she was working for HR – so I made her dress and the bridesmaid dress. That was the last one at work I did. An English girl. Even when I retired, I thought, “Well I’ll slow down because a lot of people used to bombard me with a lot of work.” But they never liked paying the money because they always want it for nothing. What I did was I got some little cards printed, I said, “Evening and wedding wear only.” So I stopped sewing for the different people bringing their clothes to me because they never want to pay me this amount, they just wanted to do it for about five pounds. That didn’t even pay for my electricity.

Interviewer: So I want to ask you a question. If you had financial resources and financial backing, where do you think you would have gone with your designing and making? What would you have done with it?

Sylvia:  Yes after I retired because even the girls at work were saying, “Sylv you can sew, you’re making all these wedding dresses, you can open up your own business.” And I thought about it. There was a place in Lewisham, a nice little boutique shop that was closed down. I said, “That would be just right.” And I thought yeah I would love to do that but the financial side of it, I didn’t have the resources, what it takes to do that. But if I had some financial I probably would have opened up the business there.

Interviewer: OK. So I have another question to ask you. Bearing all of this in mind. First of all when you think about home, where is home?

Sylvia: I used to think about Trinidad my home. [Laughs]

Interviewer: Used to. What about now? [Laughs]

Sylvia:  Well I think my mind has changed you know, because I mean I’m always saying all the older ones die out and the younger ones would give different attitude and they don’t know you. So you would go there and you would feel so lonely. But here with all the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren here and I think well this is where I have to stay for the rest of my life.

Interviewer: So this has become home?

Sylvia: Yes.

Interviewer: When you think about your decision to come to England, migrate. How do you feel about your choice? Do you think it was a beneficial move for you?

Sylvia: Yes it was kind of beneficial to me because I thought there was quite a lot of opportunities, more than I would have in Trinidad. It has its pros and cons you know, you have to weigh up. But I think I would have much preferred here, loads of opportunities.

Interviewer: So that’s good, that’s good to know. After all this time that it was worth you coming.

Sylvia: It was worth, it was worth me coming yes.

Interviewer: Yes.

[End of recorded material at 01:06:07]

 

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